S1E1
· 21:14
Hello everyone, and welcome to this, the first episode of NeuroSpicy at Work. In this podcast, we're going to be talking about what it really is like being neurodiverse, being whether autistic or ADHD or any other denomination of being neurodiverse in the workplace. The reason we're having this podcast is because we have an entire segment of people that are coming into what I believe to be a wave of autistic burnout. People who have worked with technology and the digital changes that it brought for the last few years. What we see in the workplace is a great amount of stigma around these topics and very little in the way of the support and accessibility needs that all of us that are NeuroSpicy at work deserve.
Duena Blomstrom:In order to marry our new reality of neurodiversity being accepted, yet not yet recognized, supported or respected in a way that it should be. We've put these conversations together so that we can keep it real, tell our lived experiences as autistic people and our tips and tricks and solutions as those that are living and breathing this lack of equality for those that are neurodiverse as compared to those that are neurotypical. Come listen to us, subscribe and come get involved in the dialogue yourself. Hello everyone. And we don't have a good intro.
Duena Blomstrom:We never have great intro for these things. Part of the charm of doing podcasts off the cuff. If we didn't, we would never have podcasts done these days. Let's face it, in a world as busy as ours. I have the most amazing of guests.
Duena Blomstrom:She modestly only recommended herself as Amanda, but everyone knows who Professor Doctor. Amanda Kirby is. And in the world of understanding diversity from the prism of being autistic at work, you're one of the biggest names. So thank you so much for accepting our invitation. I will add the proper intro in front of this, but we were just getting in the meat of it, which was we were just checking in with each other and I was rephrasing that I've been kind of outed as autistic at work without assuming that identity as much as I would have liked to and we were just jumping in that.
Duena Blomstrom:What have you found? Is being autistic, first of all, know, kind of in the workplace, you're not saying that the thing today, you wrote a book called that, I'm running a podcast called that and the foundation called that and being neurodiverse and neurospicy, being different at work is hard from all points of view. So what have you found?
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:Well, think it is. I think at the moment we're in this sort of mixed place and space because we were being expected to disclose or reveal or share, and if we don't, we're thought of as hiding something, or we're not being truly authentic. So we're having this 'be authentic, be yourself, tell us all about yourself'. When people are doing that, it's a risk. It's a risk to them because they're not sure about the response that somebody might have.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:And if the response is bad, then it leads to feelings of shame, you know, that what have I done? I did this, and now the response wasn't very good. So we're in this sort of interim space where people have got awareness but not so sure about next actions, and the actions might be amazing, or they may not be, you know, I think that's the challenge.
Duena Blomstrom:Right. I like how we're framing that. I I think that's a positive frame of it's just a moment of the workplace has to readjust to the fact that we have different types of individuals involved in the workplace, right? And we have to, I think it's possibly, it's not been very long. If we take a wider lens, it's not been a long time that we've even had these names for this diagnosis or this understanding of the symptomatology.
Duena Blomstrom:And most importantly, let's face it, we still don't know what amount of the people in the workplace are undiagnosed, high functioning autistic people that we're coming into, God knows what type of burnout and other issues in particular in the realm of technology and office jobs and places where the burnout of digital has been heavy. And we all know that on this conversation, or you wouldn't have tuned in, would say. But what you have found in the last few years is that, and what I find your presence incredibly soothing is that you have the credentials and the body of research for people to listen attentively. What happens is a lot of the time the stigma comes from how in, from what I call tech, I call humans in the workplace. I'm so in awe of you that I pressure manage about my own concepts.
Duena Blomstrom:This is insane. I've not done that before. So, I think what we see is a lot of this lack of diagnosis, lot of this kind of in conjunction with the moment in time where the population at large is getting diagnosed a lot We've more than
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:got an intersection that I don't think has happened ever before, right? We've got medical models where we've said, this is autism, this is ADHD, this is dyslexia, this is dyspraxia, etc. Okay? So, we've got the health professionals going, right, we understand that all of this stuff isn't as clean as that and things overlap and we need to understand people. We've got the workplace saying, well, actually, we've got to make adjustments because under legal laws and to be able to attract talent and keep talent, which is the most important thing, how do you get the people in, right?
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:And how do you keep the people that are there and make sure that people are well? So they're going, right, what's this neurodiversity stuff going on as well? Right? And then you've got parents coming Yeah, to me as yeah. Who are going- and females.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:And then we've got this way the females are being- were misdiagnosed and misunderstood, who are coming on going saying, well, do you know what? I've grown up and I think, when I look back, I didn't have the label, I didn't get the diagnosis, I didn't get the support. And they're going through and other and men as well, of all genders, who are going, I wasn't identified and I wasn't supported. And they're going through their own grief reactions, resorting who they are and thinking about their own identity and their own identity formation. So we've got this sort of thing going on in bubbles all over the place, and people have got different stages of readiness to have those conversations.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:So, you've got a diagnosis and you've only gained it when you were an adult, you might be going, 'Look, it's a sh- you know, if only I'd known,
Duena Blomstrom:if only I'd known when
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:I was a kid,
Duena Blomstrom:if only I'd known. Our conversation at this house is a lot about that. Our kids are autistic and they have all kinds of rights and boundaries and expectations of their experience as autistic, we are autistic and we were like, every day we have at least one head shake going like, that's just not fair at the end of the day, but I understand where you're coming from.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:Yeah. So we're coming from different places and spaces and different experiences. And then you've got people coming into the workplace who might have grown up, had support, had intervention, who go, look, this is me, and are very happy with their own skin and have got the language to articulate their strengths and what their support needs might be, you know, and they're confident to do so. So we've got this, know, and attention. And attention, you know, at the top with senior leadership going, well, I'm not so sure about this EDI stuff, you know, we've had enough of it now.
Duena Blomstrom:Have theories on why that tension exists. I have theories about fear, and the higher we get to the top, I have theories about fear of autistic unmasking in public that I've seen execs have. I have theories of why that's happening at the top, but you've absolutely certain structure, but absolutely carry on on this tension in the workplace, this new swell of new people that are coming in with an expectation of their experience in the workplace because they've been this person coming against. And this is coming very early, isn't it? I was saying on a podcast just the other day that we expected to be that old guard in ten, twenty years, but we are that old guard now, to Yeah,
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:yeah. So we've got senior leadership are going, okay, I need to do something. The board, the senior leadership board isn't diverse enough. We know that, you know, from a gender intersectional perspective, so they're not there. The way we construct our meetings, workplaces is still very neurotypically designed, right?
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:So we've got a training need, we've got an awareness need, we also We need do, an acceptance need, but we also need to sort of go, let's get to the core of this, and this is about communication and shared communication. So if we're going to move forward, it's not about being experts in autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyslexia, dyslexia, for every manager in every workplace, because that's never going to happen. You don't expect people to do that. They don't have to be experts in asthma and eczema and a variety of other things. But they do, what we need to do is to improve shared communication.
Duena Blomstrom:I could absolutely hug you. I know it would be inappropriate, but it just feels like you have taken it from the middle of my chest. I've been saying this for the last ten years in desperation saying we need to erase our communication issue by bringing it back to the lowest common denominator, which is the humanity of all of us, the name of each emotion, because there are 10 of them for the love of God, and the willingness to have that conversation. And that this lack of humanity really is what's missing in the workplace. And then until we find a way to get it, we're not going to fix any of our D and I problems, notwithstanding this neurodiversity one.
Duena Blomstrom:I think the neurodiversity, there's no, in my view, and I know that's controversial. I think the workplace is lucky. It has the neurodiverse people that it does, that are not going to stand by and allow them to have even more naked emperors and even more personas of being professional that allow them to put a mask on and not engage. Having kind of canaries of neurodiversity and neuro spicy individuals in the workplace who will just not put up with the status quo is maybe what's going to bring it out in conjunction with this new wave, like you say, of people that have come into the workplace in particular in most, you know, our podcast is listened to around the world. That's not the case everywhere.
Duena Blomstrom:I know that the different, there are massive differences between The UK, Europe, The US and so on. With that said, you know, the social structures you have in place in those places are what's going to inform the rest of the workplace. And I think where it becomes scary, at least to me, is when those tenants of social structure are shaky and they are not respectful, I think, of the idea of neurodiversity. That's what's more problematic.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:I think it's about being respectful and curious of each other, right? And when you're then respectful and curious of each other, you start to say, I didn't understand. You don't say, You didn't understand me. And that's a very different approach, which is when I say, How do we solve the problems? Not How are you going to solve your problem?
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:And we change the language. That is, it doesn't matter what the label is of the person, we're starting from a level of respect. We're starting with, I've employed you because you can do the job. Not that you can't do the job, otherwise don't employ people by label or condition. You employ people because you've attracted the right talent, and you've that the processes to get them into the workplace is fair and equitable.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:If it's not fair and actual, if you
Duena Blomstrom:put That's a right naked emperor right there, Amanda.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:You and
Duena Blomstrom:I know that these workplaces that have attracted talent do not genuinely, in my opinion, after fifteen years of trying to change the HR industry, even really exist anywhere else, in theory and on paper. Physicians subsist, non generative to shout out to Ron Westroom. They just end up being a bureaucratic mess of human death and horribleness. And that's when you have to fall back on the next layer in my mind, which is the society layer. But what happens there is, and I think a lot of the corporation tone you have in different geographies depends very much on how that acceptance layer happens at the more wide layer, if you wish, in society.
Duena Blomstrom:And that brings me to asking you, how do you see the role of social media in acceptance of neurodiversity at all? I've seen an immense swell over the last two or three years. I say sometimes the equivalent of a PhD in six months of Cyclops if you try hard enough.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:Oh no, know. What do you think? I think that the, look, I think freedom of thought and freedom of sharing information is really important. I think it can help educate people so they can find solutions. Sometimes it's very difficult to detect what's truth and what's not, what is evidence based and what's not, right?
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:And I think that if you go on TikTok or you go on any social media and you look for the answers to your questions, you'll find answers. They may not be the right ones. They may not be the correct ones. They may be biased ones, but you'll get answers. And I think the challenge we've got is people not being able to always rightly so, emphasise what is valid information and appropriate.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:So if you go on social media and you come with a set of symptoms, it'll fit many different diagnoses, you know. So if I have difficulties communicating, it might be because I'm highly anxious. It might be because English isn't my first language. It might be because you're speaking too fast. It might be because the way you're communicating with me.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:But what I might pick up putting that list in is a completely different conversation with a completely different label. And I think the challenge of that is providing not gatekeeping, but having some management which helps people to gain the right and appropriate support. You know, at the end of the day, people's interpretation and their lived experiences are valid and they're theirs, and however they want to describe themselves is completely okay with me, right? It really is. But I think what upsets me is if people get the wrong information.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:There is, you know, where there's an industry, neurodiversity, who thought there would be an industry relating to this?
Duena Blomstrom:And that's sad, that in itself is sad, Just like there is a cottage industry around feminism, there's a cottage So industry around male's
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:it's a cowboy country, right? So what you're seeing now is snake oil being sold. You know, if you do this, you'll get your cure, you'll be cured. And if you're a parent of neurodivergent kids, then sometimes that is alluring when you're having challenges, you know.
Duena Blomstrom:You want that shortcut. You need that
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:You want help. I've got wonderful children and grandchildren, and if I could make their life as easy as possible, and I could do it like that
Duena Blomstrom:Who doesn't want that? Yeah.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:I would try. But that, after forty years of working in this space, I promise you, there's no snake oil. There's lots of practical strategies. There's lots of routes through, but it usually takes empathy and it takes people working together to make those changes, and it takes a change in attitude of others, you know. And those are where the oil needs to be bathed, you know.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:It's not in a quick tablet or a quick quick fix, you know.
Duena Blomstrom:I mean, that's a wonderful thing you said, and I don't know if I'm sure people are listening to this because they wanted to know about being neurospicier, they'll get it, but people who are not quite getting it, making maybe that same mistake that everyone else, as jumping a step ahead and it doesn't pick them up, because our experiences being neurodiverse is sometimes so all encompassing from both from the inside and the outside. I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I do know people in that same situation as me. I think this, where I see the value of social media over the last few years is while the, like you very rightfully pointed out, the quality of information is questionable. I think that's a general problem. Has nothing to do.
Duena Blomstrom:It's not only obviously ours. And I think we should probably abstract that to saying kids in as soon as they are 10, I don't care if they can handwrite, but can they understand what is genuine information versus what's not genuine
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:information? I think it's hard I for do think that it's, you know, having information out and freely available is democratizing, it really is. Because I think as a professional, as a medic, you know, working as a health professional, I think we've held it close to us as professionals. We wanted to have that sort of, you need to come to me and I'm going to give you the answer, right? And we put barriers in place because then it means the only people who can gain that answers are those who seek the professionals.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:And then it becomes an inequitable situation because only those who can afford it or those who know where it is or can articulate it can get help and support. Like to make that distinction. I don't like that.
Duena Blomstrom:So it's important that we don't kind of make it sound like we're that the gatekeeping is a thing that we're saying. We're just saying, go to the information house, just develop this super smart critical about the information you're going and But getting with that said, amazing of Doctor. Kirby to say, look, whatever we set on information, it's like, just go get it because there is, I think the impediment that I have heard in the workplace over the last twenty years has always been, I'm not a psychologist.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:I'm Yeah, I know.
Duena Blomstrom:I mean, I don't know about feelings. I am not in charge of empathy. I'm in charge of this P and L. And it's it's been constant, and it's it's now a very tiled excuse when you have all this information at your fingertips. Number one.
Duena Blomstrom:Number two, I think important in my view is really quickly to get in, and I wanted your opinion on it was how do you feel about the element of gaining a tribe by being in any social media environment as a neurospicy person?
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:I mean, I think, you know, I think we all seek out people who have something in common with, right? Common experiences, common, how we see the world, how the world sees us. I think often our tribes are people who've been through trauma, feel detached, feel shamed, feel othered. And I think those are the common threads that are coming through this quite often, they felt anxious. And actually, in reality, if you unpack that, probably have lots of things that are different from each other, but the commonality is their experiences.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:I think the challenge we come when we go to a tribe is we believe that people are experiencing the same thing. They're not always, you know, because we're coming from different places and different experiences and different families and different interests. But I think having a place to share even our pain and difference can be very helpful, because it can be quite a lonely place to feel like I'm the only one who feels a little bit different to everybody else. We might have grown up feeling that and finding other people who've actually experienced the same things. And I know, as a parent of neurodegenerative children, I remember when I started meeting other parents who were going through similar experiences, I find it incredibly And I learned all sorts of tips and hints and strategies because they're going through it at the same time.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:When I was trying to navigate healthcare, sometimes it was quite difficult, even as a healthcare professional, to try and find something that I needed to help about shoelace tying today, where I didn't need to go to see a specialist about it, I just needed some tips and hints and techniques, you know. So I found finding my parent tribe at that stage was very helpful.
Duena Blomstrom:I think this is exactly that experience that I would describe for those of us that were like late diagnosed suffering from what I suspect is an autistic burnout. Just having other professionals. We have to remember that we've attempted in this podcast to discuss authentic leadership and say to people, look, you've been in a leadership position for the last X amount of time. There's a layer of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people that have put themselves through enormous amounts of cortisol levels and pressure so that they super perform for extreme amounts of time. And I feel like that layer is coming into a collective burnout moment to a degree.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:Yeah. Yeah.
Duena Blomstrom:Like you said, there are many other spheres in which this is a serious exploding issue, but it's not really either completely put under or seen as explosive. A lot of issues to unpack. I was gonna ask you and I'll ask you live if there's any chance that I can get you for like a few of these five minutes, one question of the week to Professor Doctor. Amanda Curvey. Really, we can have that quick one on the show And then that way we can have a chat all the time when we have some time.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:I think I put a pan on with eggs and I think they've just exploded.
Duena Blomstrom:No, I'll let you go get back to that. We are humans who have to feed other humans. So thank you so much for today, Amanda. And we'll speak very soon.
Prof Dr Amanda Kirby:Okay. Thanks very much indeed. Happy to meet
Duena Blomstrom:you. Bye. That's it for today. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe and to tell others to listen to our Neurospice Theater podcast.
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