Duena Blomstrom: 00:10

Hello, everyone. We are back after a break. In this episode, I'm speaking to Lara and I urge you to set aside a cup and some time to really listen to this story because she isn't the only someone with an incredible brain someone with an incredible story, but someone who is fighting to make a difference in education. Listen to this saga of how one courageous teacher has tried to inspire her students and wasn't able to. And then make sure you find her on LinkedIn and connect with her and ensure that your school and your children do not end up in the same situation.

Duena: 00:56

Hello everyone, and welcome back to NeuroSpicy at work. I have a dear guest today, someone who I've been wanting to interview for quite a while now, but we haven't quite managed to line up our schedules as much as I would have liked to. But welcome, Lara.

Lara: 01:08

Thank you so much, Duena I'm really, really happy to be here.

Duena: 01:11

Really glad to have you adjust. I know you're doing some marvelous things, and we're gonna go into detail on most of them. Hopefully, we can kind of unpack both both what you're doing now and your motivation towards it. But walk us a little bit through your journey, if you like, kind of in your work life, where have you been stepping, if you wish? And also, obviously, the eternal question on this podcast: Are you on the spectrum, and are you happy to disclose?

Lara: 01:38

So there's a lot there. I am autistic, but that I didn't learn until I was 47 years old. So I had a lifelong career as a high school English teacher. And then at my first school, was promoted to director of college counseling to help the students with their applications to colleges and to advocate for them. And then when I moved out of New York City, I was also at an administrative position at a school as the director of enrollment management.

Lara: 02:06

And that's when my own daughter was around two or three. And it turns out, but not until 15 years old, we found out that she is autistic. So when she was two and four and seven, you know, I was a single parent and she, I mean, you only have your own child to know, right? But I kind of could tell in my gut that parenting her, it would be better to, I returned to teaching. I left the kind of higher administrative posts at schools and I became, went back to being a classroom high school English teacher at my final school.

Lara: 02:40

And I was there for eighteen years and I did get promoted there, but I stayed as a teacher. I was the head of the English department. So it was right after that promotion that my daughter was identified at 15, and two years later I wanted to get her settled first and you know, I just was she was my focus. Two years after that is when I had my evaluation. So I wasn't really I didn't navigate professional life very long knowing about my autism.

Lara: 03:10

I certainly my autism's impacted and I can look back and think of how many ways that it impacted.

Duena: 03:17

I'd love to hear kind of reflectively going back what do you think masking has meant?

Lara: 03:23

I found out I'm autistic at 47. Don't, you know, many people were surprised, but I definitely am. And we can go back and look at all the ways that my autism did absolutely affect me and I haven't had the easiest life. But people might be, you know, there's people who are probably surprised that you're autistic. There's people all the time that are maybe even disbelieved, but at the very least you wouldn't think.

Lara: 03:48

And that's why it was very important for me. This was a high school with all girls students. And even more important for me to just be open and let, you know, educate. I was an educator. And the school for three years, one after another, denied my requests to speak to the students, to even speak to my own students, the students that I taught.

Lara: 04:09

And then my I know, that's why I'm saying it's so unsettling. And then my final request was to speak to the students before graduation, the ones who are 18 years old and heading off to university, and just let them know, hey, we had a couple classes together. I'm autistic.

Duena: 04:26

That would have been amazing. That would have been exactly what they needed. That example right there, having known you and having talked to you, it's just incredible that anyone would deny those children that much of an opportunity.

Lara: 04:39

That's the way I see it. It was a little bit unfair to me, but more it was not the proper treatment for children who had, like you said, an opportunity. That opportunity was removed. And more than that, they actively perpetuated the stereotype that a person with autism can't look the way I look. Or a person can have autism and still have a very successful career, a respectable career, and can manage at jobs.

Lara: 05:11

So yeah, it was unbelievable.

Duena: 05:15

I'm really sorry.

Lara: 05:16

That's the only reason.

Duena: 05:17

Sounds horrendous.

Lara: 05:18

Yeah. So I thought I was

Duena: 05:22

seconds. I'm still stuck on this. I can't I just feel so wrong and I'm autistic enough to can't leave it immediately. What you're practically saying is that not only did you not choose to disclose all of a sudden and then they got upset. It isn't even like that.

Duena: 05:34

It is that you have taken the elegant step of asking them if it's okay for you to tell your truth and your authentic self, and that was not okay.

Lara: 05:46

So the people have asked me, why did you even ask? Right? That you were saying that that was made it even more unbelievable. And at the beginning, it's I wanted to speak to the entire student body. I wanted to I thought it was a message that everyone needed to hear.

Lara: 06:03

And you know, the focus would not have been on me alone. It would have been on, on, you know, misconceptions about autism and probably other neurodivergences. And I think it would have been great. But so they didn't allow And me to do then when I just even wanted to tell the kids that I teach, it was already in my head that I had asked the previous time. So I said, I know you didn't want the idea of the assembly, but what if I just tell my own kids?

Lara: 06:30

They said that it could make them feel uncomfortable. And that was why they didn't want it to happen. But they're my kids anyway. They know I'm quirky. They know that I'm this and that about me.

Duena: 06:42

What were they meant to be uncomfortable about?

Lara: 06:45

Well, this makes me even more riled up. They compared it to other teachers, to a teacher or two who had revealed mental health situations to their children. So for instance, that they were, maybe their wife was sick and they were suffering depression or something like that. And that that made the kids uncomfortable. Autism, as you well know, isn't a mental health condition.

Lara: 07:10

I am the person that I am, whether or not you know I'm autistic. If I were depressed, then I would be a different teacher than I was. So it just simply to let them know that current societal understanding about autism is very misleading, and there's a lot of biases and stigmas that aren't true. And there's a lot of things that are true that a lot of people don't know. So that was, that was what I thought was very important.

Lara: 07:36

And then even at the end to just be able to tell the students who are graduating. So that's why I'm not there anymore. And that's very sad.

Duena: 07:44

Sorry to hear it, but thank you so much for explaining what happened because I think most of my listeners would not have even imagined that that's a possibility. We spend a lot of time trying to figure out what happens when we disclose and if we disclose in the corporate world, but it hasn't even occurred to me that in the public setting, we're not one might not be allowed to disclose. It literally has not occurred to me. I would have thought just because it comes to, you know, kind of it's normal and it makes sense and it's the moral thing to do. It's it's your own life, your own feelings, and and and your own neurological makeup.

Duena: 08:20

But even even in the case of mental health disclosure, I even find that absolutely insane for anyone to tell anyone else what they can and cannot disclose about themselves in any situation is absolutely insane. In particular, when it comes to education, where all these kids would need is an example of a functional human being that has these things that they have heard so many things about.

Lara: 08:42

That's the difference. So long as you are doing your job well, it shouldn't matter. And I had been promoted to head of all the English department the year before, so I was doing my job well. They went out of their way to tell me that. So if I was doing my job well, what would it have mattered?

Lara: 08:57

And I think you're, I believe you're right too. If someone is doing their job well, what should it matter if there is a bit of themselves, if they are willing that they, within reason, you know, there might be some some places, but certainly issues of mental health and, as you say, things surrounding that, it shouldn't be something shameful if the person is is doing a good job.

Duena: 09:19

This is the opposite of the world that we need to be building. The reason I get so riled up about this and so agitated is because, one, I had no idea that it is even a possibility. Most of us kind of wrestle with should the disclosure and to disclose because it is a hefty, hefty economical and moral price. I equally, like, I'm sure you've seen, I I'm a big believer and advocate in disclosure. I think everyone should.

Duena: 09:42

And I think when we do, all of us, hopefully that's going to change the makeup of the ground we are on. And I think if we're going to be very honest, we don't have the time for this ridiculous tit for that. What do we say and what do we not say about ourselves to our kids when we have so much bigger problems and our capability of being empathic with each other and our capability of being human and of being creative and of communication, those are the bits we're going to be left with that we need to be doing better than machines. And it's an emergency to create more of those instead of less of those. And if as educators, we hide things instead of exploring them, then I find that absolutely terrifying because where else do we start these conversations?

Duena: 10:28

You have this I also think it's a regional and a global thing as well or rather an international difference in the fact that you have these Australian schools that are now genuinely marking and grading students on their capability of understanding themselves and understanding others, which quite frankly should be the absolute minimum in every education. So you have this emotional intelligence fight over here and then you have over here where you can and should not talk about yourself authentically. And in between we leave a world of kids that need better.

Lara: 11:03

So much so because we're if we ignore it, if we pretend it doesn't exist, lessons do lead young adults. They have to know reality. They have to know that their own reality is not shameful, is not a problem. They need role models who manage even though there are challenges in life. And to pretend that to make a fake world where nobody has any, you know, differences of thinking, health as well, if we're all doing our jobs well, it's a real disservice and injustice to the students to erase that, to erase that and pretend.

Lara: 11:43

And then the students go into life and all of a sudden they think they're maybe a little bit different or this is going on with them. And they say, well, this there must be so much shame here. I'm the only one. Where I went to school, nobody had problems.

Duena: 11:56

I mean, would be an interesting thing to ask you, suspect. How many autistic people do you think there are in the world?

Duena Blomstrom: 12:07

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Anouncer: 12:34

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Duena: 12:57

I have a theory about the proportion of autistic versus, non autistic individuals, and I'm curious what yours is.

Lara: 13:04

Well, if I may, I want to start with neurodivergent. Not neurotypical. I think the estimate at around twenty percent is probably right. The largest percent chunk of that, that in my understanding is ADHD, which may be eight to ten to twelve percent. I believe, no, it's very important when we speak about who is autistic, you have autism that sometimes comes along in an individual who has an intellectual disability.

Lara: 13:38

And I think that the mistake that has been perpetuated in society is assuming that that was the only type of autism there is. Autism without an intellectual disability, the figures I've heard is between forty and sixty percent. So let's just go right in the middle. If we say half of people with autism also have intellectual disabilities and half don't. So I think that's important to kind of understand because are we talking about people who are in the professional world who we might interacting with and you know, or are the individuals instead maybe in a group setting or not leaving home?

Lara: 14:17

All of that said, I think we're probably at around three percent are autistic. But keeping in mind that half of those people aren't part of the workforce. I don't know if even if it went up to four percent, two percent are in the workforce. I help clients who are having a hard time with something or when they need kind of a reality understanding, this is the way I do it. Here's me.

Lara: 14:56

And then there's, well, so we're going to do 99. I usually do 99 to one, but we could do 98 to one. But here's me. And then there's 99 other people. Now where's Duana?

Lara: 15:07

Duana's not right here. Duana's over here. So it's Laura and 99 people and then 99 more people and then Duana. And that's why, that is why it feels as alone as it does. And that is why our challenges are different.

Lara: 15:28

And that is why we look around, especially if we don't know that we're autistic, we look around and see other people not having challenges with things that challenge us. Some people don't like that low percentage. It is what it is. I don't know exactly what the percentage is, but it's certainly under five percent. And I myself, in speaking with other autistics, I actually think it's helpful for us to realize that we really are in the minority and that there's a reason that things seem much harder for us because we are do experience things differently.

Duena: 16:03

Right. I mean, I absolutely agree that it's important that we assume the minority coat, if you wish. It's really it's it's it's an uncomfortable one for most of us that have lived through perfectionism and extreme ableism and and turns of that nature. But with that said, we have to admit we are a minority. I don't quite agree with your 5%.

Duena: 16:25

I think we're much closer to ten, fifteen percent of people in the world. If you start looking at how that may have increased over the last few years, because much as we may not like to say that there are, how do I put this elegantly? There are various signals that the way we have raised our kids and the way that we have interacted with technology may increase the incidence of people who are experiencing ADHD like symptoms. And then the conversation becomes, you know, kind of why do we have this extreme separation? Why can we not?

Duena: 17:01

It's the same thing that I get that today when I come to every other type of minority. I have the same attitude when it comes to us and our community, which is one, we have to find a way to unite. That's my biggest that's my biggest kind of pet peeve is that in in the in the us as as Neurospicy people are not always able to continuously collaborate efficiently, which means that we then have different definitions and everyone writes their own book and names their own channel. And it's it's, I think, the same type of challenge that every other industry where you're trying to evidence something that is not clear to the to the to the majority of the other people in the community. You come up against the same kind of reaction, which is, for instance, I've I've spent twenty years selling to the corporate world the fact that they need to change their internal culture.

Duena: 17:54

Let me tell you, no one wants to hear that. No one agrees to that. That's never the case. So if you're not, if you're part of that majority that never wants to see it, they do not and will not discuss the life for those that see it as it is. So I think finally to drive the point home, it's important that we understand we are a minority.

Duena: 18:12

We are not as small of a minority, I think, as the statistics that are obviously wrong would like us to believe. And I think creating a united community, like I was saying earlier, instead of each of us having a definition and each of us having a different corner corner, it's probably 10 times more valuable than anything else we could be doing. Because even just looking at the discourse today, there are hundreds of names and people, then that gives the very little diversity effort that still exists in the world, the challenge of having to weed through what is and isn't helpful. And what that means and what that results in is an educational system that is not fit for purpose and a work system that is not fit for purpose and cannot embrace the minority of neurospicy people that we are.

Lara: 18:58

Yeah. And then it perpetuates. Yeah. It's it's

Duena: 19:02

And on and on. But let me ask you something else. Sorry to interrupt you again. But to walk away from our doom and gloom, though, if we can, although, again, thank you so much for telling us. I'm sure that people did not know that's even a a possibility.

Duena: 19:12

But but can you just talk us through once you've had the moment or bad as it was, and many of us have had these similar moments that have pushed them ahead, whether they liked it or not. What what has happened in in your journey?

Lara: 19:24

About getting the word out, awareness, education, properly known because it is so not accurately known and it hasn't changed. I feel like the societal perception of autism is decades old. And even though you and I are here talking and many other people are doing many things to I feel like we are hearing ourselves. The community is listening because we need the support and we need the, you know, the feeling of belonging after so long feeling otherwise. But I don't feel like the rest of the world yet is listening or or thinks that it affects them.

Lara: 20:07

So I

Duena: 20:08

think a scary, scary thought. That is a scary, scary thought. And I think you're possibly right. I mean, I I see this in the corporate world every day. There's a lot of lip service, and there's a lot less of genuine listening.

Duena: 20:19

Isn't this maybe the point that we were making before we started rolling as well, which is kind of in between your efforts today, I'd like you to talk to us about in terms of coaching and in terms of producing materials, but also connected to the thing that we are soon going to announce or have announced depending on when this comes out, which is our peer to peer network for autistic people within an organisation. So both of those things are predicated on the same principle, which is that of having enough empathy to care to listen and understand and then kind of relate enough that you end up in a much better adaptive situation?

Lara: 20:56

I think the empathy is hugely important. And maybe little by little, your coworker, for instance, if my colleagues knew about my autism, but it was the students who weren't allowed to know, but my colleagues, you know, their minds open up as to, oh, you know, autism can look like this, or someone could have a job like this and have autism. And then maybe there's a romantic relationship and then they tell their family other people, I mean and then a neighbor. And so as the world interacts with people who are autistic, who are not intellectually disabled, more and more. And as you say about disclosing, when it's not a big deal, if we lower the stigmas and the bias, and it's not this horrible curse, and it's not A life sentence?

Lara: 21:46

Necessarily. Okay, it's weird. It's a different thing, but I like who I am. There's a lot of people that like me, but though I have a different neurotype. So if we can have more societal understanding of what really is going on and what is not going on, then maybe little by little it would be the oh, wouldn't that be neat?

Lara: 22:05

It would be the minority who don't understand autism. That would be neat.

Duena: 22:10

That day must come sooner rather than later. We just, I don't think we have the type of time we used to think we would have when we were young, if that makes sense. It feels like the world is running on borrowed time from many points of view, from, you know, kind of the horrible next few years that we're looking at from an economical point of view, from a climate point of view, from a mental health point of view. We have all of these coming at us hard. Something you said earlier really stuck with me, I'm hoping you're wrong, but it is possible that you're right.

Duena: 22:42

And we are kind of having this echo chamber where we're speaking to ourselves more than we are speaking to anyone else who is considering themselves neurotypical or anyone else who is in denial. But so us doing that, if it is indeed speaking to ourselves and the proportion of noise we're making is not good enough to make a big change, then we kind of we have to be more up in arms, I feel like I think that this is the time for the autistic community to kind of go you know how we have this justice thing and you know how this is not bloody right? I need us to put this straight not for us because well let's face it you and I are like ideally a few years away from retiring, but practically 45 at this rate, but everyone else, you know, kind of they're just starting out. I am terrified that we are leaving a world for our kids. I have autistic kids, obviously.

Duena: 23:30

One of those people that has gotten their stamp of re diagnosing after the kid. And my fear is continuously that we are leaving them, which could happen tomorrow, you know, having a stroke in a corner. And we are leaving them in this world where we're just talking about things. We're just and more importantly, that's the normal phase. You said it yourself.

Duena: 23:52

It's a new thing for humanity in general to be communicating. Forget to be communicating about how they feel. Forget communicating about how they think. So it's a new thing. With that said, and for our community, it's an even newer thing, right?

Duena: 24:05

Because women were never autistic because people of a certain age could not have been autistic all along. Because all of those, the community is new. And I feel like we are still in this kind of finding our feet and oh my God, me too moment. Right? That's what I call it.

Duena: 24:19

It's like you meet someone else with AUADHD like you and you go, oh my God, I see everything. We live the same life. You see me, I see you. And the community does a lot of that. If you look at TikTok, if you look at and we gravitate towards that.

Duena: 24:33

It feeds our souls. It makes us feel seen. Like you said, it's the first time we have connection. It's amazing to hear that someone else went through the same things and they are still functional and they have a car. Whatever it is, we take a lot out of it.

Duena: 24:46

And so from that perspective, the thing that happened to you is horrendous because it was exactly this. You were attempting to show that example. But equally, if we are just talking to ourselves and it is just in this moment of, oh, isn't this nice? I would say it's time we we do something better than that. I think maybe it's it's up to us.

Duena: 25:02

And I say this, and I know people don't like to hear this, but if we have disclosed, if we know we are who we are, if we get kids who are who they are, it is the almost is on us to do better for them, to change this, to leave them in a world that doesn't find them hooky and makes them mask as much as we have done. So do you not think that it's time that we kind of all of us do something more and stand up? Do you not feel the same urgency is kind of what I'm asking.

Lara: 25:25

I very much do. And I'm proud to say that I actually have done something urgently and different, right? When I left teaching, I considered getting my degree to be able to officially assess for autism. So in America LCSW, licensed clinical social worker or psychology degree. And when I got the programs and the materials and applied, it turned out I wouldn't be learning a single thing about autism in the curriculums.

Lara: 25:55

Yes. You know. So I said, well, that would be a waste of my time because that is what I'm focused on. And I said, I wonder whether I can make this work with my education degree. I wanted to help others learn since I was in high school.

Lara: 26:11

At 22, I was in the classroom after getting my master's at a top US school. And I was a lifelong educator who now knows she's autistic, who was given this sense of this situation, an unjust situation, situation, and now is fired up to do something about it. What really is, we were speaking before we began recording, what is really my strongest place of direction right now, yes, all of us late diagnosed people, we need attention, we need, and write a lot to that audience, but I personally care most about the unidentified people, the people who still don't know, because it's such a horrible way to live life. And so I developed a way to help people understand if they're autistic or not. The way I can do it is through education.

Lara: 27:01

I am an educator. And so I sit with people and I help them understand autism and what qualifies for diagnosis, what an official assessment is like. And honestly, when you assess people, you don't even many, many people don't even aren't that familiar with autism, even the assessors themselves, even though they are allowed to red stamp the assessment. But I know all about autism and I know up to date information and I've been researching for the last three years. So I sit with people and I like to do it in three sessions because the first one is kind of the nuts and bolts.

Lara: 27:37

And then the second one we can look at masking and how autism has affected them in particular. And then we can get even further. But the sessions are $150 for the first and the second, and the third one is $100 So I've deliberately set up a system where people can find out their truth with security and confidence because once you understand what autism is, you will be confident whether it is part of you. And if you aren't confident, here I am. Here I am for you to talk to, for you to ask questions.

Lara: 28:15

So, but if budget is the most important thing or if we're talking international and the rate of exchange is very different, We can get the job done in just that one session.

Duena: 28:26

That's an amazing thing. That's I don't know if I'm sure people listening to this know but for anyone who's not maybe that well versed. That is an incredible offer and thank you for doing that. It's practically you being a social entrepreneur because it's, you know, it's a it's a it's a very low level so that people can take advantage of this. So, I advise anyone listening to this to to find you and to find out how this works.

Lara: 28:53

My website is wwwautismdiscovery.com. And you see the spelling of my name. You can find me on LinkedIn and link to my website there. I also, I'm on my fourth round of soliciting donations called Pay It Forward. One of my first clients was so impressed by the change in her life that

Duena: 29:21

That's an amazing thing. I don't know if, I'm sure people listening to this know, but for anyone who's not maybe that well versed, that is an incredible offer and thank you for doing that. It's practically you being a social entrepreneur because it's, you know, it's a very low level so that people can take advantage of this. So I advise anyone listening to this to find you and to find out how this works.

Lara: 29:45

My website is www.autismdiscovery.com, and you see the spelling of my name. You can find me on LinkedIn and link to my website there.

Duena: 29:56

Right.

Lara: 29:56

I also, I'm on my fourth round of soliciting donations called Pay It Forward. One of my first clients was so impressed by the change in her life that finally understanding herself meant. She was so moved by it. She asked me if she could pay me double. Pay my bill and then may I give you double and you use this extra amount to help someone who couldn't otherwise have afforded a second session.

Lara: 30:24

You know, give them the second session and then give a first session to someone who would not be able to. And so I have continued to solicit donations like that and that's a way that can make it even easier to reach more people.

Duena: 30:38

That's lovely. That is really lovely. And thank you on behalf of all of us for doing that. The more of us that can kind of offer, offer help that's hands on the better. So what would you say in the clients you're seeing today is the most common scenario?

Duena: 30:53

Are these people who have had an inkling but they didn't want to dig any more or people who had no real clue or is it people who are just knowing but they are afraid to check properly in case that's true and then they have to do something about it or tell someone something about it.

Lara: 31:09

A real good chunk of all of those. For myself, I had no clue whatsoever and it was like a huge surprise. Other people, maybe they have autism in their family, maybe they've yeah, I've always thought so but didn't. Because if we aren't flagged as young children, we can often make it through high school and even university. Because typically if a autistic person is not intellectually disabled, we tend to be quite intellectually capable.

Lara: 31:38

And so yes, we have that kind. We have the people who had no idea and then someone mentioned it to them. Then we have people who started to think maybe two or three years ago, but. So it really is a big range. People who know about autism know how varied different autistic people's presentations can be.

Lara: 32:00

So it makes sense that people come to me from a whole array of different places within what they're wondering and you know.

Duena: 32:11

Right. Well, that makes sense. So another question I had that I think is, I don't know if you have the answer already and doesn't need to be statistically exact or not, but when it comes to people you're talking to, I would suspect that at one point they will say, right now I see it, I understand it, maybe I go to diagnosis, maybe I get out and get one. How often do you feel they have they they they arrive at the same necessity you and I arrived at when we decided to disclose? How many times do you see them going, right.

Duena: 32:42

Now I'm going to have to talk to my work, not so much because I want accommodation, but because I want my team to

Lara: 32:48

I slightly misunderstood you at the beginning, but I want to go there also because I thought maybe you were going to ask how convinced are the people that it's true? That I thought you were going to ask, but then I'll also go to the next. And it's once you actually know what autism is, it's quite easy to know. When I, anyone who's a little bit like, like this is, I can't believe I never knew. What I am able to say to them with so much confidence is tomorrow and next week and next month, as you live your life, you're just going to become more and more convinced and confident because now that it's kind of like Pandora's box.

Lara: 33:27

Now that you understand and now things finally begin to make sense, they're going to be all over the place. These other confirmations that, yeah. To the other question of disclosing, I will say that the majority of my clients and okay, my daughter was identified at 15 years old. I knew if she's autistic then I'm autistic because we're the same. I didn't think there was anything so unusual about her.

Lara: 33:54

And when I was diagnosed, it still took me six, eight weeks of wow. Even though I knew, but even when I got the official identification diagnosis, it still took me a while. So I have to say that the next step of who should I tell, I don't think people are there yet when they speak with me. Because that's the other difference between guided self assessment and a standard assessment. It's very dual directional with me, and they're able to ask a lot of questions and the ability for them to really focus on themselves and not just on the autism but on how autism affects them so much is unearthed.

Duena: 34:43

It is because you're so much earlier in the process really that of course maybe this realization of I gotta do something about it hasn't really sunk yet. So I see what you're saying there makes perfect sense. And and in in in in honestly, I'd like people to be very, very clear on the fact that we are not talking about just coaching here. We are not talking about you just having a chat with people and telling them that they should have more confidence, and these are the three breathing exercises. This is genuinely an assessment.

Duena: 35:11

It may not be the official one. It will not get you on a parking spot in the Handicap Bay. Nothing does, by the way. I mean, obviously, some things do, but nothing that has to do with our neuro makeup does get you one of those. It's what my psychiatrist said on my second assessment.

Duena: 35:25

What do you need one for? You've done so well, you're not going to get a parking spot. And so besides the fact that we're not gonna, in this particular conversation with you, people get genuine insight and get an empirical diagnosis, if you wish, if that's a word you'd be okay with us using.

Lara: 35:47

And in fact, to slightly modify what you said, I use the same, two of the same assessment tools that were used to assess me at NYU Medical School. I use the same materials. I just do it as a dialogue and you're allowed to ask questions and I'm there to tell you more about autism and yeah.

Duena: 36:07

Right. It's amazing. It's a guided empirical

Lara: 36:11

diagnosis. Were you saying?

Duena: 36:13

Yes, I love it. It's a guided empirical diagnosis that means you also have your handheld as this happening. And I think it's important. The reason the reason I say it's it's crucial to come to the realization in a certain fashion is because we talk about this on this podcast sometimes, but not enough today, maybe we will get you back so that we talk about that properly. There's there's a dark side to finding out you are on the spectrum in any which way.

Duena: 36:39

And it's not lived in the same way by everyone. But I find that the greater broad strokes are very similar for many of us that are late diagnosed, which is and that's going to be the reality for anyone who is not diagnosed yet as well when they end up with it, which is essentially however close we are to this knowledge is how much of this blowback, if you wish, we get in terms of our reassessment of our building blocks. So people are surprised about this, but there's this reaction that people go through, which is called autistic burnout, the beginning of autistic burnout, if you wish, and the way that that doesn't have anything to do with your normal burnout in the workplace. One of my pet peeves is that we need to separate this before it's too late. Just like you very well put it, we need to separate non intellectual disability autistic people from the opposite.

Duena: 37:33

Just the same way we need to be clear about this delimitation because the more time we spend with it in the air, the less time we figure it out. And autistic burnout is not a joke. It has reportedly left people unable to function at all because practically and in very big terms of I think maybe you can correct me if you don't see it the same way. Think what's really happening is we have this moment of all of these structures we had constructed so that we exist, all of these building blocks that were in a certain fashion that kind of start moving and crumbling in particular if you arrive at this knowledge yourself. And this is finally what I was trying to get to, which is if you do have a guided diagnosis with you, a conversation like this, you're not alone when you arrive at it and hopefully that reduces your probability of getting autistic burnout.

Lara: 38:18

Well, have to tell you, it's the majority, not the minority of times that people shed tears because it's just so big And it's they hear there's a mirror back at them of elements to their being that they never saw ever before exist in another person. And so there's tears of relief, there's tears of sadness, there's tears of resentment, you know, not knowing. And so it can be a very emotional experience. So that's, that's very true.

Duena: 38:50

I like that you've touched on resentment. It's the thing we don't really like talking about because, you know, we were so staunchly decided to be positive and keep doing our breathing and our meditation that we sometimes don't have the luxury of thinking that way. And the reality is we sometimes it's hard for us to be late diagnosed autistic human who has gone through life thinking they've masked effectively, finding out they didn't mask quite as effectively as they desperately tried to. And on top of everything, deciding that it's not just to keep the mask, taking the mask off and then realizing that nothing makes sense anymore. And it is unfair AF that so many other people got an easier life and accommodation and pills.

Duena: 39:37

And let me tell you, us ADHDers that never had medication are very upset with society. But directly from us to society. It's not fair. It's not nice that they kept us desperately trying to bite our nails instead of helping. So the resentment is there, and I think it's an important thing to kind of work through it with someone.

Lara: 39:55

Yeah. And you just said it very, very well. What really got me is, you know, working so hard to mask, but then finding out we didn't even mask that well. Anyway, the way I thought of it when I found out at 47 years old that I'm autistic, it felt like a big practical joke had been played on me my whole life. And everyone else could tell and I had no idea.

Lara: 40:17

And I do, don't call it coaching, I call it mentoring. I do do that. So, you know, people who I worked with a gentleman for four months every week this past summer and he had found out at 29, but came to me at 32. And so you know, these working through or what next or should I disclose, those are issues that I'm able to help with as well.

Duena: 40:40

Very cool. And I think kind of to wrap up on that, there's a lot to be found if you start digging out there. If you're listening to this and you always had an inkling, if you're listening to this and you have a child who's on the spectrum, if you're listening to this and you've recognized one of your parents in the behavior that you see being joked on on YouTube and TikTok, if any of these things are you and you have you're on that road but not quite as as decided as to go straight into the insane effort that it is in most countries to get officially diagnosed, then a 100000000% please please make sure that you find Lara online and she has already told you what the website is. Tell it to them again, please, Lara, so that people can find you.

Lara: 41:22

Wwwautismdiscovery.com. Or check my name out on LinkedIn.

Duena: 41:29

Both of those things, hope you do do because it's genuinely amazing help. I wanted everyone that's listening to this to hear it. And thank you so much for being on today, Lara, and we'll have you back another day. You have so much knowledge that we are keen to tap into that we're looking forward to it.

Lara: 41:47

I would love it. Thank you for having me today.

Duena: 41:49

Thank you so much.

Anouncer: 41:53

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