Episode 11
· 42:00
Hello, and welcome, neurospicy ones. This episode is a special one. Nick Dean, who you will meet, has had an incredibly interesting trajectory to finding his need for advocacy and to finding his true self and his authentic neurodivergent identity. But, what is super interesting is what he has done with this advocacy once he had the occasion to do so, which is that he has created a community called NeuroKindness, which I encourage you to check. And he has also, and most interestingly, just worked through an empirical, study in poll of various neurodivergent individuals, maybe the largest of its kind that I know of in the last eighteen months.
Duena Blomstrom:About a 200 people and professionals who are late diagnosed have answered, the questions he had in the study. So I encourage you to go look at the study as well. So look up Nick Dean on LinkedIn and everywhere else, and, obviously, go to neurokindness that we mentioned several times. And please listen to this episode. It's one that I think holds a lot of keys to where we could be moving forward.
Duena Blomstrom:I hope you enjoy it. Quick addendum before we move on to the conversation. And hopefully, no one listening to this has, the impression that this was, in any way, shape, or form intended as a negative. On the contrary, I have, I have something to confess. Firstly, that when I recorded the intro, I hadn't yet read the report and the findings of of of the, study that Nick and his team had put together.
Duena Blomstrom:I have now read it, and I have a couple of points to make. Not all of them are positive, but I don't think in our, in our community, we always need to be, fake honest so we we can be just authentic and, tell it like it is. First off, I'd like to point out that Nick has made all of the, all of the addendums and all of the woodlings and all of the, you know, kind of he's made sure that we are clear that this is, empirical research. With that said, one of the things that I haven't seen him call out at all is the fact that, there seems to be, to me, a heavy slant towards, a female audience and, very heavy slant towards The UK audience. That in itself, makes the report very different for my, listeners.
Duena Blomstrom:So hello, everyone listening to this, who's listened to all the other episodes. Over here, I know that I have people listening for Austria, from Australia, from New Zealand, from Canada, and, of course, we have our, US friends, alongside Europe. But what we don't really see in Nick's report is a reflection of some of those areas that which makes it incredibly hard to generalize, some aspect of it. So with with that said, in the sense that I don't believe these are findings that would hold across Europe. I do not believe they apply for Australia or Canada.
Duena Blomstrom:But I think they are interesting at least for The UK market, and and obviously some of The US. So, I think what's really interesting in the in in the report is the the the dimension of and the one that I would like to focus on the most is the mention and the prevalence of of of signs that there is heavy shame, and heavy stigma around neurodivergence. This is not news to us. We have talked about this on this podcast extensively. Almost everyone coming on as a guest would be someone that has experienced these feelings themselves.
Duena Blomstrom:They have been ashamed. They have been afraid to disclose. They have gone through the womb, kind of, roller coaster of emotions that comes with being late diagnosed. And we know what what toll that takes on individuals, and we know kind of we understand how different work careers have moved depending on the different, times when this was diagnosed and the, attitude that the workplace has had towards it. So we talk about autism stigma and autism shame a lot on this podcast.
Duena Blomstrom:I, for one, have the, very adamant attitude that we must fight it with full disclosure, proud disclosure, and a view that neurodivergence in the corporate world at least or neurodivergence that has been, late diagnosed in people that have been, in in in a on a trajectory of either their passion or their career until then is, to be disclosed so that we can empower and and and and and pave the road for people that have less of a runway from society. So I find this rhetoric of, of of of condemning ableism with no no, way of being super, forensic about the nuances of it to be probably damaging for our community. So I would say, I think the things that that make us, a lot less tolerant with each other, including our attitude towards whether autism is a win or a loss, and I will come back to this as to why this is happening to our community, are dividing us. My theory is that the reason this is happening to our community is that we are also very black and white. We believe one thing or the other.
Duena Blomstrom:It has to be one extreme or the other. It's we are also prone to having, less patience for the nuanced and great thinking. And so, it it has to be that all this is necessarily a curse or necessarily a a and talent. And it's neither, of course. It's it's all of those.
Duena Blomstrom:It's we all know that we've had a little bit of each of those feelings over our careers and our lifetimes. And we all know that the, feelings that ableist accuse us are, against are feelings that we have all had. And, of course, in a fair and perfect society, we would simply, feel the way we feel and, make sure that, that those around us, including our work, our, our relationships and so on, are able to accommodate for all of our, intrinsic manifestations. But, reality is that we have already all of us agreed to some convention, and some of that convention happens in the workplace. And the manifestation of us having to to mask so heavily in the workplace are, of course, the numbers that you will see in the burnout, statistics that Nick has in the report.
Duena Blomstrom:I mean, again, taking, the participants with a grain of salt, the frequency of burnout was of multiples. These are people, if I remember correctly, between 40 and 49. So very, very young to have had multiple burnout instances with some incredibly devastating results, so to speak, on their, on their on their work lives. And the fact that they have had to leave employment, they have had to change work course, they have had to sometimes, feel like they've withdrawn from society and have, developed comorbidities of other of other mental health issues as we all very well know that burnout, can and does, play a number on all of us. And then there's a lot of statistics that are super interesting on the time that it takes to recover for, most people and and and the the ways in which, work and and, and society can can empower those those rapid and and and healed recoveries.
Duena Blomstrom:But I think what's also interesting is is is to remember that while this perspective is a little bit skewed, the, sixty to seventy percent answers consistently around stigma and shame around autism are and in general around shame, around mental health are obviously part of the same issue, but they are also a much more internalized, shame. And I, I will say this for, for, those that accuse me and others of being, self and, and ableist towards ourselves and others. And I will say this, this is kind of what the look closes. This is kind of where it becomes through that by by simply working hard to, to, to, to, to, unmask and working hard to now fit in our authentic selves, we have created an onus for ourselves to to recreate the world around us in a way that it that fits this much more beautifully diverse neurospicy capability and and core of ours. So we are now part of this to do.
Duena Blomstrom:We are part of this massive change we have on our hands, and the, stigma and the shame that keep us from disclosing, keep us from taking the fight directly, are really what what are going to hold us back. And I will be able to finally to close the point by saying that those of us that have our voices heard, that have communities to build around us, such as the neurokindness community, such as the neurospicy at work community, such as the happier at work community, such as the, human society of human work advocates, community. All of those communities and many more like them would do well to come together, and I will spend the next few sessions exploring this with my guests. I have a a new found mission of uniting the very many fractions and and small parts of of our, of our community. And I want to be able to keep calling it a community and not end up calling it an industry.
Duena Blomstrom:And I want to be able to understand the work side of it, the societal side of it, the personal side of it, and this this this intersection of of work burnout and autistic burnout. And I want us to, celebrate and and and empower those that have, masked so far and now found out. They, I feel, deserve, the, the, the, the, the platform to talk about how they feel, to talk about where they're going, to, to, to shake this shame and transform it into pride because they have gone as far as they have went. And then to kind of shake the pride or the shame and the introspection, the navel gazing, and get into actions, bring into where they make a better world for everyone else with their stories. That's the mission of this podcast.
Duena Blomstrom:I'm sure that's the mission behind the study as well, but I wanted to make those points. So now please listen to Nick and my conversation, and, hit us up with comments on LinkedIn and on all our other platforms. Thank you for being there. Thank you for thinking about this. Thank you for considering shaking, autism stigma.
Duena Blomstrom:Thank you for disclosing. Thank you for being honest with yourself. Thank you for seeing yourself, others, and for being compassionate enough to care, listen, and move forward. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to NeuroSpicer Talk. As you heard in the introduction, Nick has a very interesting history, and I encourage you to go ahead and read more of what he's writing.
Duena Blomstrom:He's one of my favorite, writers these days. I haven't said this to him. But, yeah. So you heard in the intro why we're talking today, but thank you so much for accepting the invitation.
Nick Dean:You're welcome. Yeah. Lovely to be here.
Duena Blomstrom:Excellent. And we were just kind of hoping to chat about your your journey. And if you wanna tell the listeners, I know it a little bit, but I wouldn't be able to say it as well as you were, kind of how you've arrived at realizing that you are neurospicy and how you've arrived at at kind of the part of your journey you're in today because we're not done, Hari.
Nick Dean:Yeah. No. No. Far from it. Yeah.
Nick Dean:It's given my age, I, it's it's a long story, but I'll condense it down as short as possible. So I was diagnosed with OCD at 11, which was the foundation of everything. Two years ago, which obviously is a big gap between two years ago and 11
Duena Blomstrom:Pretty awesome.
Nick Dean:And some. I could really feel that something I just knew that something was always not right. It just wasn't comfortable. And the more I investigated into it, the more I felt, potentially, it was autism. During this time, I had built several businesses, very successful businesses, and it it again, it never felt right.
Nick Dean:Just but it I did it. I cracked on. I've got a very, very strong work ethic. So went through the the autism process with privilege. I did it through private means in The UK.
Nick Dean:The waiting lists are huge, but I felt it was something that I needed to do, so I pressed on. And that came back, positive. Within the it was interesting within the assessment notes. The first note was a recommendation to undertake an ADHD assessment. Good.
Nick Dean:Which I did the thing of going, I'm not interested in that. I wasn't the kid at school that used to run around and Right. You know, that kind of very
Duena Blomstrom:sad thing. Yeah.
Nick Dean:I was unruly, but I didn't run around. I was very unruly. They I was kind of like, I've got enough on my plate. The OCD, the officer said, I'll get my head around it. I don't think you say ADHD.
Nick Dean:I know better than that, so I'm gonna crack on. It's all fine. Well, it turns out it wasn't all fine because two years later, I was going about my work. It was within a start up within one of the businesses that we'd we'd founded. And I was about to head into an investor meeting, and I just had this moment of I can't do this.
Nick Dean:I literally can't do it. And I kind of felt during the year that something wasn't right, and it was building and building. I'd started to become very unproductive at work. I just I reflect back now. I'd stopped drinking water.
Nick Dean:Sounds really I mean, we say strange things, you know, when you're like,
Duena Blomstrom:why
Nick Dean:would you do that? But you just forget to do things.
Duena Blomstrom:And Sure. Anyone listening is scary late.
Nick Dean:Yeah. And there was a real fog. And I was like, this is this is not right. So I said to the start up, I was like, I just can't do this anymore. Like, literally, I can't do this, the commercial world, the the challenges, the relationships, and so I just stopped.
Nick Dean:I just basically had to stop. And then I very,
Duena Blomstrom:very quickly, within a matter of days, recognized that this was the first time I'd ever burnt out.
Nick Dean:And so I recognized that this
Duena Blomstrom:was the first
Nick Dean:time I'd ever burnt out. So I run very, very hard at work. And with that, my immediate thought came to my head about the the recommendation for the ADHD. And the key the key thing for that was I go into my hyperfocus, I start researching, I wake up at a ridiculous time in the morning, and it was moving from 04:00 to 03:00 and 02:00. And I was like, this is right.
Nick Dean:When I wake up at two, it's like energy, just creativity positive. And I'm like, this isn't right. So I started I was like, ah, dopamine. Okay. That might make sense.
Nick Dean:This might make sense. Okay. Let me listen to that recommendation. So booked in for a comprehensive diagnosis, and they do all the things that they do. And at the end of that diagnosis, psychiatrist said, effectively, it's, comorbid, complex, HD, autism, and OCD.
Nick Dean:So I was like, okay. That's fine. And, well, it's not fine, but that'll do. That that helps. And he said, the challenge that you've got is what you've experienced all your life is that the intersections overlap, but you can't treat any one of them the same.
Nick Dean:So you're in a constant flux of a therapist once called it whack a mole. I called it something much ruder than that, but it's like this constant battle of trying to keep something quiet all the time. That was before Christmas. My immediate thought I will wrap up, but my immediate thought was, I've gotta get out of society. I need to walk dogs for a living.
Nick Dean:I never wanna see a human again in my life. What's the safest place I can run to? I was doing my work on Substack, which you very kindly mentioned there. My my public journal, so I've got nothing to lose. I couldn't put it out there.
Nick Dean:And that connected me with a really, really incredible community where the value exchange was absolutely incredible because it wasn't like a business environment. It wasn't like, what do you want from me? What do I want from you? In that peer to peer community, it was lots of strangers just going, I've walked in your shoes. This helped me.
Nick Dean:Don't want anything. And it's like, wow. Okay. So to to wrap up a very long explanation, that's where my that's where my heading where my my future is heading slowly is is working through a a not for profit really important not for profit peer to peer community where we can build the bridges because the gaps in the health care systems are so large.
Duena Blomstrom:Right.
Nick Dean:There's a lot of people with absolutely nothing. So how do we how do we allow people to be seen as a benchmark for starting?
Duena Blomstrom:Right. I like that. That's really cool. And we should probably take this conversation offline, quote unquote, to see kind of what the intersection between what we're building is. One of the worst things I think that our community can do is to fragment and separate and and everyone use a different term and so on.
Duena Blomstrom:So I say that with our title being criticized heavily, but, you know, as long as we stand by the principles are the same, that's important. But going back to something you said really quickly because I think it should resonate with people. And I don't believe that anyone is just one thing. Right? So there's there's a lot of I I've written just recently a a big article on intersectionality.
Duena Blomstrom:No one liked it because it's too complex and too, too weird of a of a topic on LinkedIn, but, that's where it's at. It's kind of understanding that the intersection of the many things. And and for us late diagnosed autistic people, it's very likely that we went through life with other things. You call them comorbidities. I would say that they're just the way in which we've compensated.
Duena Blomstrom:And and this is what we're trying to counterbalance and compensate at all times when you have several of these things in your bag. Most commonly people are depressed and they have anxiety. Who wouldn't when you're undiagnosed and autistic in this world? So, you know, it's we all feel that, I think, whack a mole where you manage to to to sort one of them and the other one gets decompensated really heavily. Yeah.
Duena Blomstrom:And it's it's it's an eternal battle of what else do I need to do to just keep myself together as a human today.
Nick Dean:Yeah. Absolutely. I think what's really interesting as well, because I think I have many theories. None of them are founded on science. I've got two GCSEs in art.
Nick Dean:I am not an academic, which then goes back to the problem in school and education and how we learn. But I I recently did a study. I put a a study out asking for, input from, adult neurodivergent, low stage adults. Yeah. So we had 311 respondents in a week.
Nick Dean:Fair sample size. Good good sample size. What I found really interesting is I found lots of things interesting in it. But one of the things I found interesting is that when asked for what, they they they respond recognized or what they felt their condition characteristics, however we wanna term it, was the average over everybody worked out something like 2.6 per person. So it was, like, 311, but nine I was just under about 870 or something like that when you total up, which clearly said nobody just put
Duena Blomstrom:It's a one.
Nick Dean:ADHD. Like and and, actually, I've I've been in, you know, and we know this. We're talking about it, but it's like, I've met people with ADHD, and I'm like, there's not a lot common commonality here.
Duena Blomstrom:Right. And we have a
Nick Dean:commonality, but, you know yeah.
Duena Blomstrom:I think it's important that we say this as well is, and I I won't pretend I know exactly the terms either, but I would encourage everyone to go check. There are several branches of ADHD if you wish. There are several presentations of ADHD, and ironically, at least two of them are presenting opposite to each other. So it's whether you have a deficit of attention or you have a deficit of of of execution of execution of function and your your memory is not the same. So there's there's a number of things where there are differences between ADHD people and serious differences.
Duena Blomstrom:So it's really difficult to a degree to relate. The way you've you've you've said something is probably very true as well. I was just thinking about it. I have a theory that whoever says they're ADHD only are probably people who have been diagnosed early or early ish when they were Yes. You know, kind of they did being treated.
Duena Blomstrom:And and quite frankly, I'm sure if you've gotten on the medication, you understand why that's an amazing thing, and I'm glad that they have. But the reason they haven't quite gotten to maybe the comorbidities that we've developed over the years and or were not interested in finding out, I think, is that. I don't think there is any career cut one kind of things in the world. And also, it is important that we have labels. And I think you've noticed and you've you've lived through the fact that once we do have a label, there's a whole other ability of feeling your tribe that you otherwise do not have.
Duena Blomstrom:You don't feel as legitimately able to belong to it if you don't have a diagnosis. That's why I encourage everyone to try if they can. But outside of the labels, the like I said, the presentation, what behaviors and and life difficulties we've all encountered are very, very different. So thank you for bringing that up. What have you found in terms of in your survey, which by the way, I I failed the appropriate if you were already collecting data?
Nick Dean:Thank you.
Duena Blomstrom:I thought you had the question about how willing are you to disclose the to work. Right? And there was what was that answer?
Nick Dean:Yeah. The the answer on that was that and I'm gonna re recall back on it now, the majority sorry. Not many people had fully disclosed at work. I think it was around 25 I could go back and look at it. It was interesting that more people had actually, and unsuspectedly actually, but more people had actually died had closed on a a need to know basis.
Duena Blomstrom:Okay.
Nick Dean:What was what was more so shocking is is that there was a lot of commentary on the fact that people haven't disclosed, have no plan to disclose, and and the primary reason, again, we're probably not hugely shocked by it, is is really fear of discrimination, like accessibility to a promotion, to all the reasons which we kind of expect. And I think as well the the almost like the very sad thing in that is, I think that, again, the terminology I find the terminology accommodations quite pressing
Duena Blomstrom:Fencing?
Nick Dean:Phrase. Yeah. It's it's so I'm not I'm not a sorry. This can sound bad. I'm not a particularly positive person.
Nick Dean:I'm just kind of neutral. I'm just like, life is life. If I get too excited, I'll get let down. If I go too low, I can go up. So I sit in the middle.
Nick Dean:It's just the way I'm built. But for me, if we were truly embracing what are classed as accommodations, that's simply empowerment. Empowerment to do the job properly, empowerment to to be our authentic selves.
Duena Blomstrom:Yes. Right.
Nick Dean:And and that makes for good productive people. And again,
Duena Blomstrom:it's a favor that they are paying us by or anyone by offering accommodation. It isn't something that's done as a nice to have or as an ethical imperative or any of the sort. It's like you very well put it. It's an ability of doing the job that you have been hired to do. So, yeah, I can absolutely see.
Duena Blomstrom:I like that you've put that that way. I hope that that kind of catches. But that said, why do we call them accommodations or not? You know, kind of how far is the business world from from even really Yeah. Understanding that's a need in particular not in particular, but in in in The UK where there's no real mandatory kind of conversation around that as there is in The States, much as because they have a horrible situation today.
Duena Blomstrom:They have enjoyed a few years of kind of not enjoyed, but they they have had the protection of a few years where being autistic, it was very well recognized and and supported in the workplace, but not so much in Europe or The UK. No.
Nick Dean:And I think what's really so I I state a really good case in this because in my in my profession, and I have no ego or I don't shout about successes or anything, but in my profession I was I was very, very good at it. So if I was my 25 year old self, 30 year old self applying for a job in The UK, I could take my track record to them a business which was in recruitment and I can get a job tomorrow. No problem at all because I've been very, very successful in it. If I started that conversation by saying, first of all, I wanna let you know that I've got OCD. They're gonna go, okay.
Nick Dean:And then I second go, by the way, can my working hours be 03:30 in the morning until midday? Because Because
Duena Blomstrom:it happens. That's when I'm productive. That's when I'm on first. Yeah.
Nick Dean:They're gonna go no, and I'm gonna say, well, then I can't join. But, unfortunately, you've and I I don't mean to sound arrogant with this, but you've probably just lost one of the top performers in your business by not allowing me to just work. Again, it's complex and all that, but really they're losing out. And that's what I've seen within this community idea is the amount of talent came through in the survey again. How many people are self employed because they can't fit?
Nick Dean:Right. Like myself, like many people, because they can't fit into corporate environments. And they are so the talent that the business is missing out on is incredible. So
Duena Blomstrom:And I love that you said that because I I always come back to this in almost every episode about neurodiversity being an asset for businesses, but and their incapacity of harnessing it. I love that you came back to it, but I will say it isn't a stance that's universally agreed upon by our community, if you wish. It Yeah. I was surprised to see that there's a lot of pushback when when people hear that we are talking about the strengths of being neurodiverse in in the corporate world. And I think that's right for some people because they haven't experienced any kind of access to this.
Duena Blomstrom:But I also think it sorry. I pity not to not to lean into it because we very well underline this. We're probably looking empirically at 10% of the workforce. It's completely unutilized because no one has done better to to harness this. So how how close do you think that companies are to that?
Duena Blomstrom:And, obviously, it's very different. You and I worked at start ups. We probably have you know, I've I've not disclosed until late, but I could probably still get the same jobs now because I've always been this way, and I was kept as authentic as possible. But in a corporate world where people have had to mask severely for for years and years, the idea that that particular institution is capable of giving people the things they need so that they succeed is daunting for everyone and daunting for the institution itself, I'm sure. But and, obviously, lots and lots of of signals these days that it's not necessarily going in the direction of recognizing diversity.
Duena Blomstrom:Yeah. I see I see that as being a serious issue. In the community you were speaking about earlier, vast majority of people, I'm sure, are self employed. But, have you noticed anyone that is in the in the belly of the beast, as I call it, still somewhat institutionalized that is able and willing to come out because I have this theory and feel free to disagree. But that until we have CXOs and poor level people be able to be as transparent as everyone else and say, yeah, I've been autistic as well all along, We're not going to have much change and transformation in these places.
Nick Dean:Yeah. I I have two two things on it, which are, again, observations. So the first one, I completely agree with everything that you've just said there from a board level. I also think that even if the board has the direction and the culture and and embraces that, I feel that, actually, the weight of the problem sits at management
Duena Blomstrom:Mhmm.
Nick Dean:Coming down because of the weight on their shoulders. Because as a manager in this day and age, you know, if we're running a team of six and we have an employee, we've got ADHD, we've got autism, we've got OCD, we've got somebody who might be pregnant, we might have somebody with deep anxiety, we might have somebody that has is as perfect as they could ever could be in their health and wants to show up all day every day and have their team with them all day every day. And everyone is saying to that manager, I need you to help me and this is me and this is how I'm gonna show up. And that manager is unless they are deeply interested in human psychology, which as a manager, they've got a job too. I think it is and I think it blocks there.
Nick Dean:I think if the manager has got lived experience, great empathy, I can bring you with me. I think if they haven't, I think that's where there are lost blockers. So even the company objective can be brilliant, but it's I think it's so much in that one on one relationship to answer the question. Yeah.
Duena Blomstrom:A %. And not to interrupt you necessarily, but to make a quick point, I did mean that we're we're not only that company direction has to go that way and that kind of the the big, declarations about what they're going to be doing culture wise. I, unfortunately, know full well our entity. But, but but more so disclosure at a board level and the state level. People putting their hands up and saying, yes.
Duena Blomstrom:Me too. I'm autistic. I think that example will be crucial for our organizations.
Nick Dean:Yeah. I do. And the word that I hear most from that situation is shame, and I think that that sits within the I so I was the company at which I had created, it wasn't it wasn't a corporate. It was 60 people, and I'd been the leader for many, many years. And I felt I didn't disclose because I couldn't I just couldn't I didn't have the energy to come out and go, by the way, 60 people Yeah.
Nick Dean:Actually, I'm gonna say this thing now. You might get it, might not, whatever. Does it matter to you? Doesn't it matter to you? I just haven't got the energy to even Yeah.
Nick Dean:Yeah. Amongst everything else. And so and with it, I also felt quite a lot of shame in the shame's sake. I don't know. I hear it all the time.
Nick Dean:It was just a a shame of I'm apologizing for everything. And I don't know why yet. I think there's that process of understanding and be becoming confident. Yeah.
Duena Blomstrom:I mean, that's a really good point. There's there's rampant imposter syndrome. I mean, the the higher one is in a in a in a, you know, in an environment business environment, the the more that imposter syndrome is heavy. And, again, since we spent our entire lives masking so so intensely, it's it's almost it's it's really shocking and unheard of when we first proposed to ourselves as leaders to come out, really. I think it's, you know, it's one, it's super liberating.
Duena Blomstrom:I keep saying this to anyone who is a CXO that I speak to our coach. They, you know, the the the the downside of that is the advice is going the other way around these days. Lots of people are telling others to never disclose at work because this is what happened to them. Those examples where it went bad are very official and very out there, so they're very loud. And I think that's going to stop even more leaders from coming out.
Duena Blomstrom:But, again, I'm bullish on the fact that until we have at the top people saying I'm autistic too, we cannot have genuine inclusivity in in any organization.
Nick Dean:I agree. I agree. And it and it comes into inclusion, doesn't it? It's right across the board of having that representation and that confidence to say, we're all good. Let's just crack on.
Nick Dean:Let's just, you know, be ourselves and be authentic.
Duena Blomstrom:Exactly. And then what becomes more interesting, I think, and you've touched on it earlier, is kind of once to my mind, once people get over the authenticity folder of of potential autistic stigma and walk away from it and do some type of disclosure and then kind of start understanding the new relationships and the new tribes that are formed in a place that's open like that, that is absolutely miraculous. If you talk to anyone that genuinely has done that, they will tell you that it has changed everything to be able to create their own internal tribe where this is who we are. And so I think that's really powerful. I'm surprised that leaders are not leaning into it somewhat more.
Duena Blomstrom:At least they are leaders. You think that everyone who's ahead of people would have went like, oh, yes. Me too. They're they're afraid themselves, which which shows that it's not exactly yeah. It's not it's not unfounded for people to be ashamed and afraid and and not want to disclose.
Duena Blomstrom:But, again, I think it transforms everything once that starts to happen. With that said, it's hard to tell people and more importantly, the next phase of that will be how do we all work together. Right? What what does it mean? What are those intersections between 2AM and 5AM when we could have a chat with you and we would catch you at the best time?
Duena Blomstrom:And and the job of a manager, yes, would be that they, one, comprehend those perfect moments of flow and being in the zone, and two, that they manage to rhyme them in distributed and remote teams, which, as we know, is not easy at all. But with that all said, once you do make that magic and you are open, you are authentic, you have psychological safety at the team level, then you have then you have performance. I don't know why we insist on having performance in places that haven't done any of this.
Nick Dean:Absolutely. Yeah. I just couldn't agree more. It's it's it's I see the a common characteristic of autism is just seeing logic. And so I do admit my character and it's interesting.
Nick Dean:My character strengths, the BIA, are and I've had this so many times over since doing it. I've people talking about it. Number one is honesty, and that's a big problem in the
Duena Blomstrom:For the world.
Nick Dean:In the political world. Yeah. Don't like truth. Don't like honesty. Don't like conflict.
Nick Dean:So let's all hide away and cost business a lot of money. I'm just like, why? Can't we just do things like this, this, this, and we'll be okay.
Duena Blomstrom:But the openness is indeed a really big one. And our intrinsic sense sense of justice, it doesn't let us just forget that we're all fake and it's obviously part of our makeup. But and it's really, really good that we are honest that this is how it feels because more and more people feel like then they can do the same. But, yeah. So so I really appreciated that you've you've called it out.
Nick Dean:Yeah. It is. And it's I mean, the the thing on the honesty as well is really, really interesting because when as as a character trait in business, like, my my job, I would say it, is like, originally, I was a recruiter which has a notorious reputation. I didn't know I was autistic at that time, but I remember vividly people would call up and I would just tell people. I'd be like, don't take that job.
Nick Dean:It's not the job for you. This is the job. I was just good at pattern matching. I didn't think, you know, and I worked hard. It wasn't rocket science.
Nick Dean:But I never needed to do business development. People just used to call in and just go, you just tell me how it was and it's really refreshing, and I'd be like, oh, that's nice. And then Right. Literally, it did the job for me just by being honest. And I'm just looking around everyone going, why are you making your life so hard?
Nick Dean:But They speak. Yeah.
Duena Blomstrom:They they need they need to answer to this convention that's absolutely easy to us. We still don't comprehend it. It still takes us after twenty, thirty years in in the business world. It takes us effort to comprehend why people would be to that amount of fake and small talking and lie telling each other instead of trying to work it out. Yeah.
Duena Blomstrom:I know what you mean. That's what is very well, something you mentioned earlier, I think it's worth trying for our listeners. If anyone listening to this hasn't tried it, go to the VIA website and do the the the strength test because that is genuinely the only reliable psychological measurement in terms of everything from character to personality. I genuinely believe there's nothing better than that out there, so it would be worth it for people to try it. So well done for for doing that one.
Nick Dean:Yeah. Absolutely. And also very, very good to oh, I don't mind saying mine is honesty, kindness, which is good with the name because that came afterwards, and humor, which is just like yeah. It is but it's really good to assess from a almost like an executive functioning point of view, how does this sit against where I am in my career? And I'm really looking at am I utilizing?
Nick Dean:Am I really using where my love is and where my Right. My key character is? Because if I am, I'm gonna be happier.
Duena Blomstrom:Right. That's the only way to really imagine. I would say that that should be that there are some things that could have been transformational to have from the get go. One, check what people are, like, earlier and diagnose them across the board if there is anything to diagnose. Even the term diagnose is ridiculous considering.
Duena Blomstrom:Yeah. But but but, secondly, once you've done that, you just need to kind of come back to what does that mean for me and how do I make my life less as an individual? And, obviously, that comes with a lot of autistic burnout if you've if you've figured it out late. And as your your your doctor well put it, because you have two or three of these things, trying to mask for each of them has taken a different set of of skills. And once we know we're autistic, then those skills just kind of disappear for a second.
Duena Blomstrom:That's one of the reasons I tell people to be cautious with disclosure to themselves because that is something to be wary about. Autistic burnout is hard to go through, and it's in a sense harder than stress burnout or workload burnout. But, yeah, all of those are part of once we understand how we function and we can match those, so it so finally, to the point, if we were to have checked that in a school environment, if we were to have checked that when people decide on their careers and have had the proper strength test done to begin with, we would be in a different universe today.
Nick Dean:Yeah. Without a doubt. Yeah. Absolutely. And I and I do I mean, again, it's it's it just all begins in in youth and removing the barriers there for the reason you've just said, or we end up learning to mask.
Nick Dean:We learn to mask. We fall into challenges. We become frustrated.
Duena Blomstrom:Then We
Nick Dean:reach late stage, and then we're like, okay. How many more years left to have now figured this out? Couldn't we have done it? Like you say. So I think it's it's vital.
Nick Dean:And I think that that's that if that learning starts with adults and we can bring that into children and youth, then we need to do that as soon as possible.
Duena Blomstrom:Very good point. And I like that. I think it's, you know, not not anywhere are we doing the right things for kids. I mean, the fact that education is a bigger conversation from my point of view, trying to teach trying to teach people in the same regimented and sequential way when their minds don't don't take that information in that way. No minds are really created for the very sequential way that life is happening around us, but if we were to to turn it around into an agile way of doing tasks, which no one teaches these kids, but then they get out of school, and combine that with this newfound, I would call it self allowance, if that makes sense, where people younger people are so much more clear on who they are and why they are that, and they are much more vocal about their rights and anti ableism and so on and so forth.
Duena Blomstrom:If that was preserved together with with kind of teaching them to to have the the the the the environment, to to take in learning in different ways, I think, with with with with win a lot. Plus, doing things like if I'm not wrong, I think it's only Australia and New Zealand that has introduced what they call soft skill training. I don't like the term, but it gives a good idea that it's a it's a marked school subject that kids get better in their EQ. That's an amazing thing, I think. If we if we do that from the get go, they're going we're gonna be golden with with, with young people.
Duena Blomstrom:But, obviously, the the the the sad reality is, one, that doesn't exist anywhere. And two, what if they come into the same, you know, organizational suspects we went through and then they have to kind of lose all of all of their gained accommodation and conform? That would be worse. I'm really hopeful that when they come into the workplace, that will bring the change with them.
Nick Dean:I think so. And if we look at the rise in in adult understanding, there are all sorts of predictions out there. But, you know, if the predictions end up as, again, I have a whole theory around actually all of the phrases will be gone within however many years. You know? Everybody is just neurodiverse
Duena Blomstrom:Right.
Nick Dean:End of. But, actually, if I let's say make it out. Let's say it was fifty percent. If if fifty percent of people have a sense or a recognition that they are, either autistic already, it's your dyslexic, whatever it might be, then actually they're gonna start educating children and recognizing the genetics of children, and that's gonna be normalized. And then eventually, society will be so it's a, you know, an evolution of life, but hopefully, we can push it to happen quicker than that.
Nick Dean:Right. I think organically that it can be pushed through quickly, but I think there's some hope in there.
Duena Blomstrom:Yeah. That's what we're all working towards so that our kids come into a world where they can make use of this new sense of self they have that includes being neurodiverse and that they keep thinking of it as an as an asset and not a not a not something that holds them back. I'm not going to say not a disability because it is undoubtedly a disability, and I know that people get very annoyed when I seem to suggest it isn't. Of course, it is. And I'm not minimizing the, you know, insane amount of pain that we have all had to go through, let's be honest.
Duena Blomstrom:But, you know, outside of that, it is an asset as well. I think if we lean into that and we teach the corporate world to to respect us and give us the value that we deserve, then we'll have a a much better landing spot for for this new generation, I would say. So much appreciate everything you're doing for the community and your work. I will make sure that I put, your links, but where should people find you?
Nick Dean:So everything comes under neurokindness, and that is an amalgamation of supporting neurodivergence, and everything's under there. That's the easiest thing. Neurokindness.com.
Duena Blomstrom:Neurokindness Com. So that's where you're gonna find the writings and the the new, type of community and the ideas that you've talked about so far. So I'm really excited for people to go check it out. Like I say, I think you're an addictive read. You're probably, someone that people love to to to to hear from without a doubt, and it's it's gonna be it's gonna be transformational for you guys to to go read a couple of the things that Nick Nick has been writing.
Duena Blomstrom:He has a very raw and honest writing style that speaks to me because I used to write like that as well before I had to write for business.
Nick Dean:Thank you. It's
Duena Blomstrom:really awesome speaking to you, Nick, and hopefully we get to chat again on another episode. And, anyone that wants to get in contact with Nick, either neurokindus dot com or find him on LinkedIn. And thank you so much for today.
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