S1E5
· 43:41
Nathan is one of those human beings whom we should have many more of. If you look at his career and work, you'll be astounded to see him having tirelessly worked to advocate for those who are different. Not only is he an advocate for neurodivergence, but he's also one of those very rare males who are fighting hard for the rights of women in the workplace. In this conversation, he tells us how he has arrived at his advocacy and what others can do to inspire and create genuine change. Hello everyone and welcome back to NeuroSpicy at work.
Duena Blomstrom:I have guest today whom I have hoped to interview for a while. Big, big fan of Nathan's work. You've seen or heard a little bit of the intro that I've put before, so I'm sure anyone checking him out will feel the same way. Thanks for coming over Nathan, and thank you for talking to us today.
Nathan Chung:Yeah, absolutely. And thank you, Joanna, for the invite. We're happy to be on your show.
Duena Blomstrom:Thank you for your work in general, for the time you put into the topic. In the intro, we have talked about some of the things, but how would you describe yourself when it comes to neurodivergence and your advocacy?
Nathan Chung:Sure, so hi Lo, I'm a late diagnosed. I finally got diagnosed with autism and ADHD maybe five or six years ago, I'm very late diagnosed despite having these conditions throughout my entire life. The most recent conditions to add to that is complex PTSD and alexithymia. So high level, I'm a five time award winner, I'm also founder and former leader of the WESUS neurodiversity affiliate. I also have a podcast as well called Neuroset and a newsletter also called Neuroset.
Nathan Chung:And most recently, I just started a class here in Texas where I'm gonna be learning about how to advocate for disability rights public policy. And with a friend, her name is Kat Cantillo, we just started a call for proposals to start putting together a book based on stories from the community.
Duena Blomstrom:Very, very excited about that. So everyone that's listening to this, please go check it out. Hopefully it doesn't come too late for I'm going to push the episode as early as we can in our queue so that we make sure people listen to it in time. If I'm not wrong, your call for submissions ends at the November or so. So we're going to try and make sure that we're out early.
Duena Blomstrom:And what Nathan is collating are stories of women who have been neurodivergent in the is it in the STEM side of things or would you say in technology?
Nathan Chung:Yep, so the scope is tech, the tech and cybersecurity field, is a pretty good umbrella. Also, high level, the book has four categories. Number one is women. Number two, we also want stories about career success, things like, if you get a job at, at a big tech company, we wanna we wanna hear those stories, like, what what our company is doing right in helping people like me get a job in in tech or cyber, what kind of a combination they get. Number three is gonna be neural inclusion.
Nathan Chung:How are people making their workplaces more inclusive for people like me? And number four is a topic that a lot of people don't don't cover too much is accessibility is an attribute where in tech nowadays it's generally not very accessible for people with disabilities. So we want to hear stories about people who are developing accessibility tech and making technology more accessible.
Duena Blomstrom:That's amazing. I think all of those are, I mean, you're touching on everything that's going to be the preo meat of it all is in those areas and having both stories of lived experiences and the what's new in terms of kind of making those stories happen is amazing. So I'm really excited to see it come together. I'll make sure to submit something if it's any good, then maybe we can include it. So going back to diagnosis and stuff, how come you found out and you went to check?
Duena Blomstrom:Are you one of those people who had the kiddo that was diagnosed or have you decided to check separately?
Nathan Chung:So yeah, this is an interesting story. So I think one day I think I just couldn't focus at work, I had a small, mental breakdown. So it's it's it's kinda like when a crime is committed, there's always clues, and I knew something I I just knew at an early age I was different, but a certain event, maybe seven well, almost ten years ago now, it just something just made me think that something is going on with me, and I want to find out what is going on with me because I obviously did not have the same set of controls or operating system so to speak as everybody else so I tried to start going down the path of looking at the clues reading books, it's in a podcast and videos on YouTube just to follow the breadcrumbs and eventually that led me to really start seeking a diagnosis in autism and ADHD.
Duena Blomstrom:So do you remember the moment it clicked?
Nathan Chung:I think it was, one book in particular it was called, I don't remember the name but it's something like I'm not lazy, crazy, or stupid. Mine is. It's written by a the author has ADHD and reading books like that and people's learning about people's lived experiences, it just started clicking. It's like that definitely sound like me. It's complicated, like, does the story of Cinderella and the shoe fits?
Duena Blomstrom:That's so true. And I think we maybe don't say this enough and I'm fully ashamed on this. The amazing strides we have made as society in the way that we allow people to relate to one another, have those of us who are have gone through a life experience without any diagnosis that have now been able to practically find their tribe and find these people that they resonate with and whose experiences are almost copying their own in various other places on earth. It's feeling like no other. I don't think neurotypicals can imagine what it's like to just find others and for their experiences to almost mirror yours from a very different perspective.
Duena Blomstrom:And in a sense that belonging that it gives us, I would say it would be beneficial for late diagnosed or anytime diagnosed autistic people to kind of do that half their time, if anything, kind of relate with others like them, because we've been surrounded and a lot of the connection that is now being studied between trauma and autism a life of neurodivergence is coming from the fact that we've been surrounded by no examples of people that seemingly felt like us. Obviously that's not true. We were all surrounded by other neurodivergent people, but we all masked each other to the point that there was no connection previously. So thank you for bringing that up. That's important.
Duena Blomstrom:And that's why your book is such an exceptional thing. I think that's great to work on. But
Nathan Chung:how come,
Duena Blomstrom:In terms of the book, I know we're driving straight into the more meaty thing, but the the call for submission is from women. You're obviously not one yourself, I would say. Want to assume, but I presume you don't present female. So you're an incredible advocate of women in the technology field in general. Forget the neurodivergent women only.
Duena Blomstrom:So walk me through that. How does one become a genuine advocate? We talk a lot about men should be advocates and they should do better, but you're actually leaving that and I'd really love to hear how come.
Nathan Chung:Oh yes, absolutely. So before I started advocating for neurodiversity, I very much believe that men should help out women because as, as studies have shown, the number of women in the tech and cyber fields is roughly twenty five percent. So some people might wonder why aren't there more? So one reason why is their mental health and their neurodivergent needs often go unaddressed. They have a hard time getting a diagnosis.
Nathan Chung:And even today in modern era when a woman goes to see a doctor and saying they want to get tested for like say autism or ADHD, they often get turned away. They often get told these conditions only affect white men, and if you're not one, you cannot possibly have these conditions. So that has it's a disservice. It's a horrible thing to do to all these women out there who who need help so that pretty much shuts down their ability to get, like, accommodations to wear or get support services. It's it's a huge impediment.
Nathan Chung:Also, I strongly believe, like, if you want more women, address their needs. Like, even things like conferences. Me and my friend Kat, we we, collected, information from the from the committee, and my poll showed that, the big tech conferences are largely they they largely by large, shut out people who have disability, and the biggest group of all who is shut out are women, women with disabilities. That means, like, it's not just harder for the women to get into the field. It's most impossible for them to enjoy conferences.
Duena Blomstrom:And stay and that thank you for saying that I mean this this to me it's music to my ears to hear the people genuinely you know hear us and see us having been through that. From the perspective of someone who's been there and has been told consistently that I can't possibly be autistic if I've done well in technology and or in general by being female, that's kind of taking the possibility off the table. But having lived through that, it does feel like a very locked in syndrome and in fact, ironically, and I've heard this from other women who like me have been late diagnosed, it feels like not only have we overcome so much, but we have the experience we've had is completely being denied by society and it's almost being turned out as not a thing. It's tough and we cannot be more appreciative of men who actually hear us and see it because it is so rare. And obviously yourself understanding it from the inside is a big part as to why you're advocating.
Duena Blomstrom:But also, are so many men out there that could be doing so much in this realm and taking the baton and doing something with it would be crucial. So thank you for doing that work. Do you, if you don't have daughters or have been raised in an exclusively female household or any such origin stories to this to you?
Nathan Chung:Okay. So high level, so I grew up in Hawaii, and in my household, I grew up with all, all my siblings were all, men. But overall Yep. But overall, you could say, over time, I just I just started getting more and more friends, and I just felt the need to help help help out and advocate for women because one thing I say in my smiling speech is the women in the tech fields they could be your daughter, they could be your mothers, they could be your sisters or your cousins and it's a it's a human right we we got to help each other out.
Duena Blomstrom:That's just incredible I think you're you're losing empathy and that's inspirational to for anyone to hear. So and and that example that you gave, the way of your your phrasing it, it's just attempting to get people to remember that they don't live in this isolated self at work. And I think a lot of men become so consumed by their male hood and identity of I am now here and I'm going to be doing this job that they find it difficult to kind of pull others up as well. So that empathy might be harder to Adi, would you describe yourself as a super empath then? Of us neurodivergent people have that happen to them.
Nathan Chung:I've done I think I've done a lot. Like for example, I wrote an article in Women's Security Magazine that's in Australia about how a lot of the issues we talked about, how women, they have a hard time getting a diagnosis, they have a hard time getting support, and result, there's a lot of women have a hard time getting into the cyber and tech fields because they're they don't don't feel supported. And I'm not sure if my article had an impact, but they their Women's Security Award, which is gonna be a month in a month or two, they do they are gonna have a neurodiversity champion category in their awards. I I believe that's the first and only awards event I am aware of that has that category, so that's very historic. I think my article might have had a small impact, but I think it jolts people to raise awareness that this is a problem.
Nathan Chung:Got we got to do better.
Duena Blomstrom:Right. Right. And it's, I mean, the same breast that we're saying we need more women in these fields because we're not going to be doing great in these fields until we do. And let's be honest, for those of us, know not everyone listening to this is in technology, but for those of us who have lived a life in technology, we know that one of the reasons we haven't moved quite as fast as we would have liked in technology is because we have had trouble adopting the things that would have required us to be a lot more human. And that is partly because we have had such a male posture dominated industry.
Duena Blomstrom:And on the one hand, you'll have and this is an extreme oversimplification, but if you look at the technology industry, you're going to see a layer of probably neurotypical white males, let's be honest, of a certain age who have gotten access to power in various ways in various enterprises and they kind of dispense adaptation as they see fit and that doesn't trickle down to the categories it should do. Equally, we have this other big layer of techies who are very often neurodivergent, but they are also incredibly locked in by a lack of diagnosis, imposter syndrome, a fear of disclosure. And so between those two layers, women have come into the industry in other ways, trying to kind of figure out the operational side, the HR side, the sides that they could. With that said, they don't last long in the industry. I've just seen a statistic saying that the large percentage of women and we're talking the vast majority of women, simply do not last more than ten years in the industry, which is a horrible thing to think of.
Nathan Chung:Yes, absolutely. Actually, I'm going to be talking about some of this in my next talk tomorrow at the Texas State University in front of college students. Because as you as you know as well, women in the tech and cyber field, they face a lot of barriers. And one of them is, when you work in these fields, you often have to work long hours and need to constantly keep learning. It's so it's very stressful and very difficult.
Nathan Chung:So a lot of women, they they look at that and say they don't wanna pursue such career because they wanna have a family. They wanna have kids. They wanna have a husband or a man or a woman with them and have a kid or essentially a family, but what I'm gonna tell what I often tell people is instead yes, you can have both, you can have the career and you can have a family that I know many, many, many, many women who actually are succeeding as both, a mother and as a cybersecurity or check workercazette. So I know many women who are just doing both and succeeding.
Duena Blomstrom:I will say not without a price. And I will say it's not an easy thing. And I will say it does take a lot of self care so that you go to distance because I know hundreds of women who like me burnt out multiple times while trying to make it all happen. And many of us are having these obvious drive for perfectionism that comes from our ADHD and is pushing us even further to be all the things to all the people. Even more people are undisclosed.
Duena Blomstrom:I was actually going to ask your opinion about this. I wrote not long ago an open letter to neurodivergent leaders. The response I got was extreme. It was all behind closed doors and it broke my heart that all the response people were not quite there yet where they were willing to disclose at all. So how do see this happening even in our real, right?
Duena Blomstrom:If you look at the conversation on social media, on LinkedIn, anywhere else, in terms of non disclosure, is that strictly autism stigma, that's a general thing in society? Is that an economical factor? Because if we look around us these days, the technology industry, which was a bubble once, is imploding now and people are not finding jobs. What do you think motivates people to be even less willing to kind of disclose?
Nathan Chung:Oh, it's a lot to hit there. So start high level, the negative stigma has always existed throughout history and it's still there today so on the plus side I'm happy that that actors and famous people like Richard Branson they come out and they're proud of having being neurodivergent unfortunately for a lot of us like at companies being seen as having a condition like autism is still seen as very much negative. They think of it kind of like a factory job. Can you work the job? And as soon as you say that you have a disability, usually you are disqualified in the job hunt.
Nathan Chung:It's a sad reality, but I know a lot of people who are struggling, pretty much struggling to get a job because they need because of the various conditions, they need the remote job. But as we see, especially in the past few weeks, many big tech companies like Amazon, they are bringing people back to the office. They they want to eliminate remote work. So a lot of people who have dis disabilities are being affected. They're they're they're having a very hard time entering entering the workforce.
Nathan Chung:But overall, I would say that the negative stigma has always been there. As, as we go through shifts throughout the world right now, it's it's it's not getting any better. We're trying our best, but it's not getting better now right now.
Duena Blomstrom:Right. That's not that's probably not what people want to hear. But the truth is both advancing. And I think it's it's hard for us not to acknowledge that delta between the world today and the world ten-fifteen years ago in terms of neurodivergence is immense. We're very grateful.
Duena Blomstrom:But like I say, I attribute it mostly to the fact that we have have found tribe and we have re rated and we know now that we are not isolated, which makes a very big difference. But equally, as you very well point out, it isn't getting better. And I think it's important for all of us to not start going, that's going to be fine. We're now out of the woods and the companies and individuals alike are happy to kind of see us for who we are. And we're going to be met with adaptation and given any kind of diploma for having gone through the pain we've gone through.
Duena Blomstrom:That's very unlikely. And unfortunately, have some horrible personal experience with how both society and industry is very close to the idea that people can both be successful and autistic at the same time. That seems to be incompatible to many people. But with that said, we're probably not going into a lot of good times, if that makes sense. I think it's better that we batten down the hatches and understand that some years are coming of a potential backlash.
Duena Blomstrom:I see more and more of people accusing late diagnosis as fads, people claiming that there is an endemic believing you're autistic when you're not. All of these things are probably, unfortunately, going to have to take their course and those people will have to exit the workforce before we get anywhere. But like you say, very rightfully, there's a backlash and it's a serious backlash at the work level for almost all the things that would have made our life better. And return to work is one of the big ones. And for anyone listening to this who doesn't know, indeed, there have been unfortunately really big tech giants who have either used that as a vehicle to get rid of people or just insisted on city policies in terms of return to work.
Duena Blomstrom:Do you think that that is momentary and we can kind of hope that over the next two or three years things are going to settle down as that maybe new generation comes into the workforce?
Nathan Chung:Sadly, I foresee remote jobs are slowly going away. There will be some companies that will continue to have remote jobs but a lot of big tech companies like Amazon they're they're they're going back full back in the office five days a week it's sad but that's the reality but on the flip side I do have hope that smaller companies because many smaller companies are still having remote jobs so they they're gonna lead the way for instead.
Duena Blomstrom:I like that perspective not not we don't necessarily need to keep Amazon we can very well just fit it into the 500,000 companies that are going to be neurodivergent and and smart. Speaking of which, do you work with neurodivergent people yourself?
Nathan Chung:My current job, no. But I do have a lot of friends in the industry who are so for example, the me and a whole and a group of them, we created the group called OESIS, Wooden Cybersecurity New Jersey Affiliate. So that is the, so WESIS is the largest women's cyber nonprofit in The US, and they have a global presence. I created I founded along with a group of women, I founded and created the the new diversity affiliate of that to help support and advocate for women in the tech and cyber fields.
Duena Blomstrom:Yeah, we cannot be any more grateful for your work. It's a lot, you're tirelessly seeing the right things and this is what's one of the most amazing things about neurodivergence. And it always gets my goat when people don't even give this enough credence is that once we see what's right, find it impossible to unsee it and we have to keep fighting for it. And that is probably one of the saddest things that the industry doesn't know how to appreciate. So I worked a lot over the last, call it, ten years on a concept that my listeners hear me talk a lot about, which is the idea of psychological safety at work and the need for that so that you have productivity, coupled with the need for communication, so that you have agility, coupled with the need for body doubling so that you can pair programme, you name it.
Duena Blomstrom:All of the things that we genuinely need so that we have the organisations we're hoping for are contained in neurodivergence by default. So the fact that we don't use neurodivergent people to drive organizational change, it's always been shocking to me, but I suspect you're right and we are quite far from that these days. That said, in the last term, I worked with a lot of neurodivergent people, we try to positively discriminate and only hire people who are neurodivergent and people not take as much as we can. And I see the increase. Well, I will not lie.
Duena Blomstrom:It is difficult and until such a time that at the very beginning of forming and storming and norming to quote the phases of evolution of a team, anyone has seen Patrick Lencion's work, it's hard. It's harder than it probably would be for neurotypical people who are a lot more adept at socialising potentially. But once you fall into formation, if you wish, and once you start going together, the incredible heart you have in a place where you can have psychological safety by default, which is what you can be guaranteed you're going to have with neurodivergence is amazing. So I absolutely advise it. I think that is the model.
Duena Blomstrom:Do you reckon that's possibly true that more and more companies are going to become neurodivergent next, if that makes sense?
Nathan Chung:So high level, there is a push in the tech and cyber fields to hire more newer divergent people. But so far, what I've seen, like, the hard way is it's a mixed bag. Like, there are the programs tend to hire people in the into the entry level fields, like software engineer or and have low pay. And, whereas some other companies, they will hire, but you're segmented from the rest of the workforce, kinda like being special ed. I don't agree with that.
Nathan Chung:I think people like me should be hired and we should all be integrated because at the end of the day, we are all different because people, they tend to put us in this category, like, either the normal or you're not in the world, but that's wrong because I read from this one show, miss Marvel, where she said famously, there is no normal. There's no such thing as normal because we're all different. And at the end of the day, I think the best way for organizations to help people like me who's neurodivergent is to just understood understand that that I'm different, everyone's different. Just understand me and get me what I need in order to thrive and succeed at work. That's pretty much it.
Nathan Chung:You don't have to make it complex.
Duena Blomstrom:Right. And, you know, that's a really good point. And I think, you know, not a pleasant point. I have almost the same attitude towards this as I do towards feminism. And I know this is controversial, which is if we, as organizations, started to look at our people as the valuable individuals with their many differences that they are, then that should extend to everyone and we would then be able to give everyone the adaptation they need.
Duena Blomstrom:The same reason that we can't really advance is because we're not willing to see people as human beings and individuals and we see them as numbers and dots on paper. So that kind of is the case forever. Obviously in neurodivergence, our plights are a lot more prevalent if you wish and pain of having to go through that is a lot, we cannot underestimate it, in particular on a show like this. Have to be honest, it has been horrendous for anyone who has been in the workforce for the last twenty years and has had to mask, right? But equally, you see this adaptation being more than just a badge for some new CEO wanting to look like they do diversity and inclusion right?
Nathan Chung:That's kind like, I think overall a of the neurodiversity programs today is they're trying, they're trying their best everyone wants to do it but it's a mixed bag some succeeds some fail and the other piece to it a lot of people don't talk about is it's this is very much dependent on what what what country you're in as well because some parts of the world are very much supportive of, neurodiversity. Like, Europe is Europe is doing pretty good job in some places like UK, Canada, and Australia. Those places are doing pretty good. Whereas I have some other friends in other countries, like in Germany, they it's not doing they're not doing that well. They're Middle East.
Nathan Chung:And in some countries of the world, it is very it it it could be potentially, you could potentially lose your life just for being having autism. That's the push of truth. It's very much dependent on what country you're in and available support is available to you.
Duena Blomstrom:Right. I will dispute that The UK is doing all that great. Thought they would, that I think it's a lot of a lot of posturing and a lot of presumption that things are there. But I think, it's a good point, I think, What is policy and what is the reality on the ground are very often different things. But very good point that the different cultures and different geographies have different response structures to this.
Duena Blomstrom:And I think a lot of it depends on, well, there's multiple factors obviously, but some of the more important ones are access to diagnosis. And also, and let's be honest to anyone listening to this from elsewhere, it is going to take all of us being slightly more courageous as well. It's not going to be good enough depend on the structures you're on. It's going to take almost everyone who knows they are neurodivergent now because they've used this tribe to find the courage to be more vocal about their needs and the adaptation that would fit them. Because we say adaptation, but let's be honest, there is no such thing as the one thing that an organisation could be doing so that all the neurodivergent people would do better.
Duena Blomstrom:If that existed, they would have possibly done it by now. But what it takes is to actually look at each person and attempt make work happen with people in the way that makes them function best. And that's hard to accomplish, right, in particular in a public organization. But what have you seen in terms of genuine best practice adaptation wise? What is what what examples do you think work best?
Duena Blomstrom:I mean, is it Sure. What kind of things?
Nathan Chung:Sure. So high level, a lot of people are not even aware that you can request accommodations in for interviews. For example, when I interviewed for a big tech firm, when I got the email, they had this nice big blue button that's that's basically says, if you need an accommodation for the interview, just hit the button and tell us what you need. It's simple, and I appreciate that you don't even have I didn't have to submit my medical records or or fill out any form they just I just had to hit that button and just tell them I need it when I asked them for the questions that hit interview questions ahead of time and also additional time for questions and also breaking out the long question because big tech companies in particular are very hard because they usually give you like all interviews all day long multiple people very stressful for new to rich people like me. So I ask them to break it up into smaller groups, maybe two people max and, one hour per, session max.
Nathan Chung:That helps tremendously. That and having having the questions ahead of time made the interview one of the best my entire career so things like that it makes a huge difference just offer accommodation at the interview level that that alone helps tremendously to break down barriers
Duena Blomstrom:And that's a really good example. Obviously, it still leaves you with that fear. You've mentioned it yourself earlier that if I disclose that that puts me out of the same chance that other people have. So there's really no way of knowing that other than get into the habit of asking for this adaptation at all times. And once you're in, keep asking for it, particularly since you've started to own that foot and that's fine.
Duena Blomstrom:I would urge anyone who has disclosed their diagnosis to keep asking for things such as it doesn't have to be big things. It doesn't have to be things that, you know, kind of make you feel completely different than others and alienate you from your team, but it can be as small as does everyone have a read me and here's mine. The things that you can usher in at the team level are we underestimate, but they are massive for even those around you. And keep thinking of all the people you enter the teams of, very likely that half of them or a third of them are neurodivergent themselves, like, and masking just as hard as you do. So surely bringing any of those things in is helpful.
Duena Blomstrom:And you talking to students is, I think, incredibly helpful. Talking to this new generation that's already coming in the workforce with, let's face it, a lot clearer of demands in terms of boundaries and needs and adaptation is crucial. How do you think
Nathan Chung:they
Duena Blomstrom:they are being received to be to be elegant? How do you think what is there any backlash to to them coming in that hot?
Nathan Chung:Not really because I think whether giving talks to the the next generation of the younger student, I think for me, those are the best talks I I do because it's important for them to see someone like me thriving because the unemployment rate for for many people who have autism, ADHD, or neurodivergent, it's very, very high unemployment. People like me we traditionally have problems finding and holding a job so that's why I really appreciate, talking to college students and the younger generation to give them hope because in the end they will all succeed But, like, my when you look at my career, it wasn't a linear straight path. It was, like, zigzag. It was ups and downs, ups and downs with a lot of success and failure along the way. And I think that's something that a lot of people can learn.
Nathan Chung:Okay to try something and fail. Try and fail. And as long as you're going in the right direction, hopefully.
Duena Blomstrom:And this idea of nonlinear career development is super important. I'll say it again and underline what Nathan said. I think we are expecting to have an upper trajectory at all times and continuously advance. And I think that's not realistic for anyone these days, forget for people who are neurodivergent. And if you add to that our need for challenge, need for nuance, our inability to stand in justice, our need to be the canary in the mind that always kind of tells it like it is, all of those will translate into ups and downs in your career.
Duena Blomstrom:And I think it's super important that we know knocks on this path will happen and you just have to accept them as a neurodivergent person as part of your career path. And I think things are changing though, right? Aren't they? Because when we started, I don't, you're younger than I am, but when we started work, you couldn't not show a continuous progression or you couldn't show a whole of a year when maybe you are these days you can't take a year off because you're completely burnt out and you need to take care of yourself. That is an immense win.
Duena Blomstrom:Having the ability to talk about self care in workplace, new. Having the ability to say that you need time and you might have had a different path that seniors, new. All those things we should be grateful for and they're important, but moving forward, we have to keep pushing at them. That's what Nathan is doing with his amazing work. It's just what's exciting.
Duena Blomstrom:When you look at around yourself in terms of, I mean, the cybersecurity side of technology and little do people know, but in the technology industry, there are, I don't know, twenty, thirty minutei denominations of other industries. God knows why. But we have these groups. When it comes to what you're doing, it's a special area of it. It's an area where it's extremely important that people apply themselves in an intellectual fashion.
Duena Blomstrom:So you're likely to be surrounded by a lot more neurodivergent people than not. Do you get a lot of private messages rather than official admissions?
Nathan Chung:Yep, yep, yes I do. Because every so often I get a message from someone, like say in my field that say, where they tell me thank you because they hide. A lot of people who are neutered, they tend to hide and they have to mask and pretend to be normal and try to fit in. But then the result is they get tired and they burn out. Even something as simple as, due to the hi, Lou.
Nathan Chung:Due to the poor economic conditions since COVID, a lot of people have to take jobs which they don't want, which increases the chances of autistic burnout, so as a result, a lot of people out there are miserable, they're miserable and unhappy and job they don't like, and to add insult to injury, remote work is going away as well. So, like, people like me were just trying to desperately grab on to the remote jobs and hold on to as much as possible, but that's the world that's the world today. Powerful people are going to these world conferences saying return to office, being in person is a good thing. I disagree because it hurts people like me with a disability.
Duena Blomstrom:It is not only just because of that. I'm incredibly shocked that we are having this conversation. I wrote a book during the pandemic called People Before Tech. And at the end of it, we didn't know where we were going. So I had to speculate where is this all going.
Duena Blomstrom:And I said, we're going to be going through a major economic downturn immediately. It didn't happen immediately and we are still covering for it. It's almost like a covert economic downturn. No one wants to really admit that we are hitting rock bottom in particular in some industries. But with that said, remote work, bar none is possibly one of the most productive states in which you can put the tech industry.
Duena Blomstrom:So anyone who insisted they should have people in person at the office in the tech industry is a liar. We know that. That's not something that's disputable. And I don't think any of the people that insist so are saying that they have any other statistics. Know four factors, zero need for that.
Duena Blomstrom:So I think we have to go back to the basics of we now have proven evidence that there is zero reason to keep people in an office. In fact, you're hurting productivity, you're hurting high performance, and you're not going to get where you want to get as a tech company. They know this though. And you're right that a lot of this is just casual throwing of people because they have too many. Now that still, I think, brings us in the industry to a point where we should say, well, you might have too many, but if you're serious about talent, you have to remember that talent does live in neurodivergence sometimes in some industries more than in having neurotypicals in the job.
Duena Blomstrom:So let's be more bullish about being proud to be autistic and what it brings to the tech industry and be very clear that we shall not stand for it and eventually hopefully this will reverse in some future at some point, hopefully. But let me ask you one of the last questions. We're running out of time. Know people are not paying attention for that long. I wouldn't.
Duena Blomstrom:When you look back in your career, would you say that it has taken even more toll on yourself or not to kind of be courageous this way? Did it bring you solace or did it actually potentially intensify your CPTSD?
Nathan Chung:Okay, I think high level, the advocacy work I do, it does it is tiring, does take its toll every so often, I need to rest every so often and you could think of it as, at first, I was like everyone else. At first, I just wanted to work and just hide and just be like everyone else. But over time, I started to flip that around and under because one of the biggest problems a lot of people with disabilities have is the heart. They don't want to be a lot of people, they don't want to have disability. They don't want to make a stigma.
Nathan Chung:They don't want to look different. But in my experience, that's one of the most critical battles of all is to win the heart, like, to accept who you are and instead instead of rejecting it. Because how can you ex expect other people to accept you if you don't accept yourself? So you'd be surprised when I see that at my conference office, people start crying for some reason.
Duena Blomstrom:It's not for some reason. It's because you exude so much passion for it, so much empathy, and so much genuine acceptance of yourself and others. It's a beautiful thing. And we cannot be more grateful than having you today. I think this is really inspirational for people.
Duena Blomstrom:I'd love to have you back. We are running out of time. Absolutely.
Nathan Chung:I had
Duena Blomstrom:a bunch of other things I wanted to ask you about, you know, imposter syndrome, hustle culture, all of these things we're living through in the tech industry. And so I hopefully grab you back for another conversation. But thank you so much for being so open and honest with us today, Nathan. And I will make sure that I add all of the places where people can find you, obviously on LinkedIn. And hopefully that you get all of these submissions and we can read all of these stories of people like us that have been there, done that, and then more and more people can come forward and know that it's hard, but it's doable and it's all from the heart.
Duena Blomstrom:Thank you so much for
Nathan Chung:coming Absolutely. Yep. Thank you, Duwena, for having me on your show. Bye. Bye.
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